This article was written by Vic Bishop and originally published at the Waking Times.
Editor’s Comment: Contrasting with the deadly real potential of technology is a story that proves tech can be used for good. An enterprising 19 year old in Britain has come up with a ‘Robot Lawyer’ to guide penalized drivers through a process to create reliable and speedy dismissal appeals that will stand up in court.
In the right hands, it can empower people to fight against the system, but will it be enough to check the awesome power it wields in other areas? It all depends.
19-Year-Old Develops Robot Lawyer That Dismisses Your Unjust Parking Tickets
by Vic Bishop
Simply and aptly named, Do Not Pay, the ingenious business of a 19-year-old Londoner has already saved citizens of the UK an estimated £2.9 million in civil fines for unjust parking tickets. Less than 2 years old, the already popular ‘Robot Lawyer’ service has assisted people in absolving some 160,000 tickets by helping users take advantage of the appeals process, which is generally overlooked and underused.
“DoNotPay uses a simple chat-based interface to guide users through a range of basic questions to establish if an appeal on their parking ticket is possible. These include queries on whether there were any visible parking signs at the location where the ticket was given. The AI lawyer then guides the user through the lengthy appeals process.” [Source]
Receiving too many parking fines near his home, and discovering that most could be dismissed through the appeals process, Joshua Browder was motivated to act, and created the artificial intelligence service that became an instant hit . The service is now free and easy for anybody to use, providing public legal advice that not only helps people to avoid paying excessive parking fines, but also to avoid having to hire expensive law firms to represent them in such relatively simple legal matters.
‘I felt bad, because I knew that these drivers would be forced to go to exploitative law firms to get their issues resolved. To solve this problem, I realised that the best way to help people would be to create a computer program that could talk to users, generate appeals and answer questions like a human. I decided to create the UK’s first robot lawyer for consumers.’ – Joshua Browder
Browder, a Stanford University student of economics and computer science, has already turned down offers to buy him out, and now that the service is operating in London and New York City, he plans to open a DoNotPay site for the city of Seattle next.
“The robot was designed by Joshua who received advice from professors. His original website took three weeks to build, but the robot has been trickier and longer to create.
Donotpay was originally built to appeal parking fines, allowing motorists to pick one of 12 reasons of defence, then enter the relevant details and send a custom-generated appeal created by the website’s algorithm to the council in question.
With a success rate of 40 per cent, based on an average parking penalty of £60, Joshua has helped thousands of drivers save a total of more than £2million in parking fines.
He then it expanded it to help with other compensation battles.” [Source]
Revenue generation has sadly become a key priority for law enforcement agencies, and the reality is that government is frequently caught breaking their own laws in order to suck as much money as possible from the tax cattle. Browder’s views on exploitative policing are quite mature for someone of his demographic, and rather easy to comprehend for the public, especially to those who are familiar with the changing current of policing in the West, where departments now place greater emphasis on making money rather than ensuring public safety.
“I think the people getting parking tickets are the most vulnerable in society. These people aren’t looking to break the law. I think they’re being exploited as a revenue source by the local government.” [Source]
What do you think about ideas like this? Are we seeing the evolution of revolution, where ingenious young entrepreneurs take on state corruption by making common sense solutions easy and affordable for the public?
How much longer will the state permit the existence of services like these which directly threaten the rich revenue streams of corporatized, for-profit government?
Vic Bishop is a staff writer for WakingTimes.com and OffgridOutpost.com Survival Tips blog. He is an observer of people, animals, nature, and he loves to ponder the connection and relationship between them all. A believer in always striving to becoming self-sufficient and free from the matrix, please track him down on Facebook.
It Took 22 Years to Get to This Point
The health "experts" are "on alert" after the first case of bird flu has been found in a child....
This article was originally published by Tyler Durden at ZeroHedge. Update(1315ET): After months...
The outgoing Biden administration is looking to send another $24 billion to Ukraine to continue to...
Commenting Policy:
Some comments on this web site are automatically moderated through our Spam protection systems. Please be patient if your comment isn’t immediately available. We’re not trying to censor you, the system just wants to make sure you’re not a robot posting random spam.
This website thrives because of its community. While we support lively debates and understand that people get excited, frustrated or angry at times, we ask that the conversation remain civil. Racism, to include any religious affiliation, will not be tolerated on this site, including the disparagement of people in the comments section.
The robots will cry robots tears.. this has to be a joke… They are doing whatever they can to push this on the people.. Have people gone nuts
No parking meters anywhere in my area. Pretty irrelevant. However any device or program that defeats the Beast is a good Invention. Remember that a well armed population keeps the P2B in Check Mate. How much Beast BS will you put up with until it is no longer tolerated?
A buddy of mine has an Auto Repair shop regular stand alone work shop building on a highway. He is charged by the county $100 a year so he can place a very small dumpster on the property. The Dumpster vender is required to send every placed dumpster on a list to the County so they can collect their BS $100 Tax. This is a Government shake down if they can get away with it. Plus the vender charges him for the dumpster weekly pickup service.
So this guy says hey, I can play this game. Currently he pays $45 a Mo to the County to pick up trash at his house, so he cancelled that Pick up at home, and he takes all of his house trash and anything else, to his business dumpster via his pick up. He throws the bags in the truck bed. So now the County just lost hundreds more of money in fees, with stupid rip-off Tax gimmicks.
Learn to play their game people. Just be smarter.
Met a neighbor farmer today, that raises a small herd of cattle, hormone free, will be butchered and cut anyway you like it, all in Quarters. With steaks cut any thickness you want,..etc. it comes out to like $5 per LB. And hell of a lot cheaper that any store in my area. You can buy quarters to a full cow. A quarter will fill a small chest freezer. Working on that,… and I will order some meat. Going together on a full cow with a few other locals I know. We had that conversation and all agree. Build these Local Connections now, when real SHTF, You will be rewarded with familiar faces you already do business with. As we are all on the same team already and help each other out. Twisting in the wind alone is No Prepper Plan. You can still isolate yourself, but a cheap meat food source is a great connection.
Thought about putting a speed limit sign on my BOL driveway, reads “65MPH Limit, arrive at your own risk.”
~WWTI…
WWTI: This sounds about Perfect as a driveway sign at your property eh?
“Don’t Tempt Fate!…Remain Outside the Gate!”
Worked swell at my crib while I had it nailed to a tree just inside my outter main gate.
congrats Mr Browder , you will do well in life !
There is hope for the next generation. Thank you LORD!
Sgt.
Notice this is British parking tickets. In America, they shoot you for a civil offense. Not much appeal from that.
Cops are taught
1) Ask for compliance
2) Tell for compliance
3) Shoot for compliance
4) Force for compliance( cuff em Dan O, while
they bleed out)
If we had a robot that can do something with trolls, that’s one I can support.
A robot that helps with threatening spammers would be great too.
give them a dirt nap with your ventilation team.
Tunkcuf and anonymous, behave yourselves or I’ll get Hillary after you.
tunkcuf and anonymous are dildos.
Try as you might you can’t beat City Hall for long, have to keep that money pouring in. A giant vacuum that can’t be satiated, whose pay and benefits cry out for more more from the peonage lower slobovians, under authority of law just like latter day police who rob people when given the opportunity, daily.
More bullshit piled high on a mountain of bullshit.
How can anybody fall for this crap.
Little Joshua, is so smart, he made a robot out of his toys and gave the world the gift of robotic law enforcement. Wait while I puke.
Do you believe this story. You must not have taken your smart pills. The ones that taste like rabbit shit.
This project had nothing to do with a team of PHDs at MIT. No. Robots are not going to further empower the wealthy and tighten the grip around the throats of the enslaved. Accept this because we love you. Here look. We don’t want to rob you, we are here to help. Bullshit.
LMAO, best post yet.
They should make a robot lawyer for California gun owners that says, “do not comply”.
CA needs a Robocop that kills Democrats.
CR, outstanding idea. Make one for all gun owners all over the US that says “we’re not giving up anything”.
Goddamn right in that one NotSoBrave
My experience is that people who say that don’t do it, or at least very, very few of them.
And of those that actually try to, most of them end up dead or in prison (and usually without a fight).
That’s what the British once said.
CR,”No habla ingless”
@ PO’d,
Que?
I head a commercial on the radio the other day. Said, how many times have you been to the grocery store and can’t remember if you have milk? You get on your phone fridge app, and your fridge is wired, and the fridge will tell you is there is a milk in the fridge.
So I’m thinking, like what scan device is logging in your groceries, creating a profile and probably a marketing data collection on the app. And moonshine has no bar codes. This is like a Red Light Camera or a Pin Camera to see your beer and shine.. or like in your bathroom to see if you have toilet paper on the spindle. This is a device for sheeple. What if it is a nearly empty milk carton. how the hell does it tell how much milk you have in the container. And like WHT moron, forgets if he has milk? Or if it is expired? That’s what we write on our grocery list. Or take a photo inside your fridge with your camera phone to see what you have.. All of this data collection, so you can pay an extra thousand dollars for a fridge, to dumb you down even more. It may just be a camera with a light and you can see through the camera into your fridge.
This is not a device for preppers as we already know we got 5 crates of toilet paper, we get the milk from the neighbor, and we are stocked to the gills already with most everything and backups. We shop in bulk and save money. We know how to keep a grocery pick up list and take it with us to the store. And it’s damn accurate.
I usually look in the fridge when I write my grocery list. Hmmm What do I need. Suckers Just Get Fleeced.
It probably notifies the cops, if you take too many beers out of the fridge within a hours time. Then Rats on you to the Cops if you then start your car and Your Onboard computer On-Star sees you driving and tracks you down with the On-Star GMS and notifies the DUI Wolfpack.
I will say this, the Feds have a phone that sniffs high levels of carbon monoxide and alerts. Like they put these sniffing devices in your cell phone that you don’t know about and rats on you if it smells pot. Turns the phones speaker on and camera and records what you do, then alerts the Cops via the phone’s GPS and within minutes there is a knock on the door. really??
People UNPLUG from everything and find your inner peace. It is not in devices. See That’s it, I’m turning my computer off tonight. ha. Have a good weekend.
Mac,… how about an article about Silver and Gold for this weekend, for us to Chum and blog over? Lots of good info out there I’d like to share. Silver at $19.755/ OZ. Almost hit $20 today. And I see no slow down punching through $20. The ceiling was broken. No more mass paper shorting.. We take a pause from the charts, and reflect for a few days. And what to expect next in my opinion of Silver movement. Buy on the dips. It was a great week for the PM’s. My sister said she should have bought more. I was sending out emails to friends and family saying buy this now for months and weeks leading up to this… A few listened and bought. I even picked up 100 OZ for like $13.80 price last Nov. Nearly at the bottom of $13.67. The charts are the road map for this silver bus. I’m up $6 on that trade in Physical. My Break even cost was an average of $16.74/Oz. So I am up $3 and this is just taking off. And double at this price today. I see $40 Silver by next year, or even this year, if there are some Horrific events, when the P2B pull their strings. They are heavy into metals and we can ride their wave and profit too. Play their game. Learn to win every time. Be a Trump, kick ass.. I’m listening to some AC/DC right now. “For those about to Rock,…We salute you!!!”
~WWTI… And we don’t take prisoners here in the swamp. Those who wish to harm us, disappear. Later.
And WHAT pray tell, are you EVER going to need a 100 Oz bar of silver for?? Buying a house? Wouldn’t it make much more sense to have that 100 ounces in smaller units, especially coins, like dollars, half dollars, quarters and dimes?? And WHY would anyone want to accept a 100 Oz bar of silver from you, unless they have a way to divide it down into smaller units because THEY see that they would have a hard time in finding a purchase that would accommodate a 100 Oz bar? Say you buy a piece of land with that big bar, how often will a purchase like that occur in any given community? At some point, it will have to be cut down into MANY pieces.
And I would like to know why you think that there is some kind of a valid exchange rate (ratio) between fiat paper currency of ANY name, and a precious metal. You do realize don’t you, that the fiat paper currency has almost NO intrinsic value to it? So what difference does it make if you trade fiat paper currency at the exchange rate of one to one or one thousand to one, so long as you actually get something of value for the fiat paper currency while you still can? One day soon, you will not be able to find someone who is willing to take even ten thousand units of any fiat paper currency for an ounce of silver! Do you see that? Look at 1923 Germany or Zimbabwe recently. ALL fiat paper currencies fail one day. You can count up over 600 of them in the last few hundred years, before you even get past the letter B of the alphabet! Does that tell you anything at all? Is this getting through to you at all yet?
I hear those big silver bars are cood for door stops or a crab pot sinker
Buy all the God damn silver and gold you want people. You won’t be able to buy a bowl of soup from me. I don’t care if you give me everything you own. I can’t eat that shit. 25 year shelf life food is the best investment you can make.
Howard the duck, W only buys 1 oz .999 silver rounds. This is one thing I agree with. And Trump. One cannot go wrong by acculumating these, easily used in transactions. If a round is worth 17$ now, in time .999 silver will rise in value to ???
I try to be well rounded. A little of everything. Don’t place all your eggs in one basket. But what do I know?
Just been doing this prepping gig for decades…
What the heck do you mean, “is worth $17.00?”. The FRN has NO value to it at all, other than what some schmuck may like to THINK it has! Who is “W”?
Can you explain to me why in 1964 you could pay 1 USD for an ounce of .999 silver, but in 1965 and beyond, you could not? Let me give you a hint here now; post 1964, the perceived purchasing power of the USD/FRN was declining to the point where you needed MORE than 1 USD/FRN to equal the PPP of the 1 ounce of silver! Now, you need almost TWENTY USD/FRN to equal the PPP of the 1 ounce of silver! This ain’t rocket science here, Jethro! It’s all just simple math. 2 + 2 + 4, right? So if you take some of the first 2 away, say like .5, then you need to ADD .5 to the OTHER 2 to still have the equation balance out to 4, right? That is what we call inflation is all about. Loss of PPP of the fiat paper currency means we need more of it to keep the equations of society all balanced out nice and even. This isn’t too straining on you, is it?
Not as straining as to figure out who ‘W’ is. WWTI is who I was refering to.
Newbies, when will they ever catch on?
And no one has to write a book to convey a message.
Read the archives…
They just changed the strategy. We are in the early stages of FINAL inflation.
It’s called hyperinflation…!!!
Give it 4 to 5 months and it’s all over.
Once the money is almost worthless and Silver is $1000/oz, then the next step is… they are both worthless.
The real value is food, fuel, water, medication, hideaway underground shelter, solar and so on.
Yea Bobane, I’ll really believe your predictions and timelines. like the last one.
It’s just another gimmick to separate well to do people from their money. I saw an ad for one of those refrigerators the other day, and I believe it was made by Samsung. The cost for a fridge with a few cameras inside (roughly $50-100 worth of hardware at most) was just over $4,000! This, for a fridge that would likely retail for $1500-2000 without this silly new feature. Yes, people really are that stupid. What frightens me the most though is that the cost will come down significantly in the next year or two and then it will be so cheap that it is in every fridge. Give it ten years and virtually every house will have one and another bit of privacy potentially goes away. The same will also be true of everything else as the cost of integrating everything to the internet of things goes down to near zero, and the old non connected technology becomes old, worn out and it’s parts become obsolete.
Winston: yes and the fed gov’s Main Key to get them inside the home access…Will be those electric Smart meters!
Mandated by fed Law for every home and buisness to have smart meter installed…Then they can dictate as to when your elec power gets halted or browned out for periods of time…
And once Every fridge, washer machine and cloths dryer and all appliances get smart tech hook ups…Then the fed gov can employ a division of NSA or CIA govnt worker force of Snoops!
They want to Know all about You!…So to better Kontrol You!
If every true usa patriot person contributed just One lone single us dollar it could then Fund the worlds largest ever sized Wood-Chipper machine!
Then whenever folks decide it is time…Can round up every last NON patriot traitorous scum within usa lands…Bring to Chipper machine, The Biggest ever chipper worldwide! and throw the captured scoundrels into it and Nourish the landfills with fresh fertalizer.
Then same patriots go round up every last dime traitors gained thru bribes and deciet and lies and split it fairly back to said patriots they stole from in first place!
they can call it a type of socialismm program to reimburse swindled patriots in usa…
plus we can use some of that cash gained to Rent every love boat carnival cruise ship on earth, and charter those ships for usa to ship former slaves aka savage africans back to africa….America like it was when proper and good again.
Haven’t posted anything in awhile but a small part of southeastern my stands with u all
Alright guys need some help.Who has silver right now!Trying to swap my change jar for pm.ck’d one none in stock
Maniac –out
Pulling the Teeth out of the Mouth of the Legal System
Not many people realize that the legal system is a complete scam, and even fewer realize that it has teeth which can be easily pulled out, quite easily, in fact. The forceps that are used for this task come straight out of the legal system itself, believe it or not! These forceps come in various sizes, shapes and styles, but they all do the exact same job. They expose the contradictions and hypocrisies of the legal system, as well as the crimes that the legal system commits in order to function. All that one has to do to identify these forceps, and then use them, is to thoroughly read and understand a few key elements of the legal system, such as its basic premise for existence and from where it derives its authority. There are a few more which will be touched on as you read further. And as more and more of these tools are learned, much confidence in using them will be gained.
The legal system from its very beginnings, when the King’s Court was seen as becoming too corrupted to function properly as a place where people could get their due justice when they had been wronged, has been nothing but a huge scam. Not even the men who spoke so eloquently on behalf of the plaintiffs and defendants way back then ever saw that the legal system would be its own undoing one day! But that time has indeed come upon us now, and all that we have to do is open our eyes and greet it like a brand new day dawning upon us, with a cheery grin and a song in our heart.
The various policing agencies are a rather easy set of teeth to yank right out of that meat grinding maw of the extremely ugly beast we call the legal system. One way is to get into the record the fact that “witnesses” for the State enjoy being able to lie while under oath without any fear at all of perjury charges being filed against them. This is supposedly allowed under the guise of it furthering the interests of justice! Just HOW are the interests of justice served by certain people being allowed to lie while under an oath to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? That’s not justice at all, that’s criminal collusion to say the least! It makes a complete mockery of that oath! If this fact seems too incredible to believe, all one has to do is make a test by firstly reading Terry Reed’s book, Compromised; Bush, Clinton and the CIA. And then ask a lieyer (without telling him/her that you are onto their scam) if that is true or not. If they say that it’s a lie, then bring up the fact that that very thing happened in Reed’s case, and ask them how they can reconcile the two things. You see, ALL good attorneys always know the answers to their questions BEFORE they ask them! Unless it is one that comes out of some testimony, the answers of which will be verified later on to make sure that the truth was being told.
Another pair of pliers that can be used is to show a conflict of interest with any of the actors involved. These so-called judges are a good place to start, since they are all just Executive Administrators who do not even swear a proper oath of office before they begin hearing cases. And they never disclose the fact that they are actually acting as the lead prosecutor in any case. These EAs take a portion of the proceeds of a court case in the form of a payment into their retirement account. In “income tax” cases, they can get a cash payment of ten thousand dollars upon a conviction!! Isn’t that a conflict of interest there? Do the arresting officers get any kind of a perk or bonus from their actions? Or does their department? Isn’t that biased policing?
After many years of study of the legal system and its machinations, something was suddenly realized. It is the incontrovertible fact that the entire legal system runs on fraud of one kind or another. And since fraud is a crime, exposing it for the whole world to see, negates any pretense that it is an honest system and one has to endure it. Let us look at the definition of just two words now, and see how they fit into this tool box of ways to beat the legal system at its own game, shall we? The first one is the word contract. It is defined in any law dictionary as having five essential elements to it, and the violation of even just one of them to any degree then renders the whole thing void. Those five elements are competent parties, subject matter, a legal consideration, mutuality of agreement and mutuality of obligation. Notice now that these are given in terms of absolutes, meaning that there is no lee way at all in any of them. They are either there or they are not. For how can anyone measure how much deviation from them can occur before the alleged contract is finally vacated? That is a very deadly arrow to pull from our quiver. Another word is fraud. According to several court cases, fraud vitiates all that it comes into contact with. Fraud just touching something renders that thing completely contaminated and of no further concern to us. How can it be otherwise? If it is some other way, once again, what is that measuring instrument which we use to mete out the appropriate amount of fraud to make sure that we get just the right amount?
Any alleged contract can be vacated for fraud, threat, duress, coercion, mistake, illegality, immorality, impossibility, insanity or minority of age. Another tool in this box is The Seven Elements of Jurisdiction. One can easily find them by just the most cursory look around a law library or online. The Void for Vagueness Doctrine has been used many times to yank whole sets of legal system teeth in one fell swoop, as well as proof of a mistaken identity. So you see now, the entire legal system is just riddled with holes, some of them big enough to sail large ships through three abreast with plenty of room left over. Other holes may not look to be so cavernous at first glance, but all holes leak something. And once a small leak has begun, it can turn into a major spill very quickly. Now some people may not like to remove those chains of the legal system from around their ankles, because they feel that it is their duty, in some sort of a perverted way of thinking, to be ripped off and abused by it and its actors. Or maybe it goes against their brainwashing in the public fool system or some religious order to seek freedom. And to them I say, well, please have a very good time with that then! But if others do not want to be made a victim of the legal system, why should they be so made? Just to keep the others company in their cell next door? We should have better things to do with our precious time than that.
Yet even more tools are The Three Magic Questions. What is the EXACT AMOUNT of fraud that ANY man or woman has the right to commit? What is the EXACT AMOUNT of fraud that ANY man or woman has an actual obligation to endure? What is the BASIC PREMISE that is being operated off of, in the instant case? Those three questions right there have the lieyers heading for the hills when they are asked. They have no real defense against them, so they MUST run away as fast as they can and hope that they can outrun them.
So when enough people are educated with this material, the current legal system will be starved more and more, eventually becoming so weakened it will just die. When enough court cases are dismissed and no profits are being created from them, the various policing agencies will have to curtail their criminal activities. Like civil asset forfeitures. That is the real reason why Prohibition was repealed, too many court cases were being lost due to jury nullification and the courts were losing money hand over fist. Make no mistake about it, courts ARE businesses which must show a profit each fiscal year. Every court in America is listed in Dunn & Bradstreet as a business!! And, the federal government couldn’t keep shame off its face with a law on the books that couldn’t be enforced, so Prohibition had to be repealed.
One fine day, we will be able to go back to Common Law courts with real juries of our peers; our friends, neighbors and business acquaintances, for who else should know us better in order to judge us? The judges will be there only to act as referees to keep things running smoothly and the jurors will be the ones who judge our guilt or innocence based upon the factual evidence presented.
Wtf I agree 100 percent. Everywhere in this country we are being dumbed down And no personal responsibility. Look at the warning labels on everything. Good grief. This generation coming up can run a computer but can’t fix a flat tire or balance a checkbook. Hmmm a robot , which I hate, helps u get out of a ticket from a rotten govt , which I hate, also u don’t have to get a lawyer, which I REALLY despise. I’m. A little torn on this one
It has no scruples, morals , ethics etc.. It seems to be real lawyer to me other than the fact it’s not making my skin crawl.
Whenever I pull up to somewhere to park I take a parking ticket off another car and put it on mine. The meter person goes by my car thinking they already ticketed it. I stay as long as I want.Try it it works. I’m not paying to park ever. That is rediculous. I just beat city hall by being a step ahead of them. If they catch on to it and stop you just tell them I don’t know some punk must be playing games. They really don’t know and cannot prove anything. Trust me. Never got pinched once and never paid either.
So, someone gets a bench warrant because you use his ticket, then toss it. If someone catches you, you’ll get a boot up your ass minimum.
No he just says I never got a ticket left on my car that’s why I didn’t handle it. Besides he or she didn’t check their meter. Still their fault. Never known anyone to get a bench warrant for failure to pay a parking ticket. Maybe in commiefornia they go to extremes there law wise. Worst thing you will find out about it when your registration need to be renewed. Don’t be a cunt you have to try to get away with as much as possible. The gov tries to dime you as much as possible. When I’ve gone to court the judges are usually fair and give you the benefit of the doubt if your respectful. Some people are so afraid of court judges because they fear authority. Weak people must not believe they are in a free country. The whole system is a game lawyers know it and play it too. A bench warrant for a $25 ticket. Please they are just wanting you to mail in the $. Don’t sweat little stuff the courts have bigger fish to fry.
Get a few unpaid tickets, then get pulled over for something, see what happens to you.
It’s a sleazy thing to do, put someone else at risk because you think it’s funny.
Asshat is a very appropriate moniker for you.
The kid who developed this robot app to fight parking tickets is now working on an app to help refugees navigate the legalities of the immigration system? The linked story has been edited; it originally said “Syrian refugees.” As if the U.K. doesn’t have enough problems with the Muzzlums.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/tech/worlds-first-robot-lawyer-overturns-8302040
QUESTION: Would you purchase silver rounds or genuine coinage? What would be your reasoning?
Silver rounds are cheaper. Is their silver content in question?
I like turtles