Reuters’ Emily Flitter asks in a recent column What is Plan B if China dumps its U.S. debt?
It is worth asking about U.S. officials’ Plan B just in case one day relations take a surprise turn for the worse and Beijing dumps its holdings of U.S. treasuries.
China is officially the United States’ biggest foreign creditor, with roughly $900 billion in Treasury holdings — or over $1 trillion with Hong Kong’s holdings included.
That means it could do severe damage to U.S. debt markets if it suddenly started selling large amounts.
This is not a “just in case” scenario. China has already been taking steps to curb their US Treasury purchases, lowering their U.S. debt holdings from $929 billion to $896 billion between November of 2009 and 2010 (Hong Kong’s year over year holdings are down as well). Chinese President Hu Jintao made it clear where the Chinese stand with regards to the US dollar of the future calling the current dollar-led global monetary system a “product of the past.” While this may not necessarily mean the Chinese will one day, all of a sudden, halt all purchases of US debt, it is certainly reason for concern to those hoping to maintain a strong and stable U.S. currency. Our major foreign creditor is reducing their exposure – that means something, or at least it should. The US dollar, as it has for the last 100 years, will continue to weaken over time compared to other major currencies, and our dollars will buy fewer and fewer goods as a result. The nation’s fiscal problems will see to it that the depreciation of the dollar accelerates over time.
The slow collapse of the dollar, in our view, would be the best-case scenario, but there is still the very real possibility that China completely pulls the plug and kills the patient. Ms. Flitter writes:
To be sure, the idea that China would suddenly sell its U.S. debt holdings is almost unimaginable to some.
After all, any weakening in the U.S. debt markets and the resulting global markets turmoil, including likely weakness in the dollar, would bounce back on China and could hurt its economy badly, especially as the United States is such a huge Chinese export market.
It is only unimaginable to some because they don’t believe it can happen here. But it can happen here – it must. The lead stories during this economic recession/depression have been about real estate, jobs, and GDP. The real story is none of those. Although it has yet to become the mainstream talking point , the real crisis facing America is a sovereign debt crisis. We have too much debt, and that’s going to get cleared out of the system one way or the other.
Any number of reasons, some of which Ms. Flitter mentions in her article, could be used as justification by China to stop the purchase of U.S. debt. Trade and resource disputes, Taiwan, or the final push to bring America to it’s knees. Sure, the Chinese economy and its people will hurt for a few years, but it would be a small price to pay by a communist Chinese government to see the world’s major super power be marginalized or perhaps even completely obliterated.
Make no mistake. The Chinese are at war. These events are not simple one or two dimensional short-term manipulations. The playing field is a grand chessboard and the Chinese have been positioning their pieces for decades. An attack on the King is imminent.
Ms. Flitter suggests several plans (packaging them into what she refers to as ‘Plan B’) to deal with the attack once it begins and be assured it will. You can be certain of it.
In an earlier report we detailed that the Pentagon and Military are Actively War Gaming ‘Large Scale Economic Breakdown’ and ‘Civil Unrest’ scenarios, going so far as to send military specialists to the floors of our stock exchanges to learn more about how a financial attack on our system would occur and to develop response plans if and when it does.
Plan B
Banks could be called on to increase their holdings of treasuries, and as a last resort, the Federal Reserve could also be called on to fill the gap, though this could risk turning any dollar weakness into a slump.
Plan B is already in effect, as evidenced by the monetization of US debt by the Federal Reserve. It started in 2008 and continues to this day, with the most recent round being some $600 billion dollars (officially). In case you haven’t heard, the privately held (by major banking institutions) Federal Reserve is the largest buyer of US debt, having surpassed China as of November 2010.
Given that we have been engaging in Quantitative Easing for quite some time, and the US dollar continues to lose strength and status, we suggest that Plan B has already failed.
Plan C
In 2009, economist Brad Setser suggested the United States could establish emergency currency swap lines with political allies if a country like China ever abandoned the U.S. debt market.
But the list of countries prepared to step in as buyers when U.S. Treasury officials try to hawk U.S. debt or seek foreign currency loans has probably changed somewhat since Europe became mired in a debt crisis.
To some extent, this plan is also already in effect. Japan and the UK have recently become aggressive buyers of US debt. The hope is, that along with Fed monetization, the dollar will be stabilized. However, as the US government continues to issue more debt, raises the debt ceiling and commits the American people to trillions more in liabilities, this strategy is doomed to fail, as well. How much debt can the UK, another nation in a sovereign debt crisis, continue to purchase? And if China pulls out, will Japan continue to throw good money after bad?
Plan D
“The U.S. government should have and maybe still could call on the people of the U.S. to invest in U.S. debt,” said David Walker, a former U.S. comptroller general who heads an advocacy group calling on the government to curb the U.S. budget deficit and borrowings.
…a confrontation (e.g. Taiwan, trade war, or resource dispute) would also make it easier for Washington to appeal to the American public to buy its debt for patriotic reasons.
If we do get to a point where the US dollar comes under attack from a Chinese sell-off, it may be hard to convince an already broke and hungry population to invest their last remaining financial life lines into a collapsing currency. This doesn’t mean that our government won’t try. They’ll appeal to our sense of patriotism and tell us that this is the only way to save our currency.
Remember, however, that if it gets to this point it means that all previous plans have failed – the Fed monetization will have done nothing and foreign buyers have dried up. Anyone getting in at this point will be setting themselves up for a total loss.
Not to worry, however, as there’s always…
Plan E
In the past, anytime a government has failed to save itself from excessive and out of control spending, it has turned on its own people. When Plan D proves to be a failure and those with money in their retirement and bank accounts refuse to buy in to the propaganda, the government will take drastic steps. Similar to Argentina and the push by some European countries as of late, the US government will set its cross hairs on your retirement and private pension accounts. We’ve written about it before, and for the time being it’s but a discussion in a Congressional committee.
But when the Federal government and US Treasury are backed into a corner, they will undoubtedly attempt a mandated appropriation of all retirement funds for the greater good. The people will be outraged, sending letters, emails and phone calls to their Congressional representatives, but as we saw with the bailout bill and nationalized health care, the people will be ignored. It will be your patriotic duty, just as it is, according to Vice President Joe Biden, your patriotic duty to pay more taxes.
Doomed
In the end, no amount of monetization or deal making with other countries, or forced appropriations of personal assets will be enough to save the dollar. Why?
Because no one in any position of influence has suggested and/or implemented a workable Plan A.
We are attempting to treat the symptoms of the disease, rather than the disease itself.
Spending is the elephant in the room that is single-handedly responsible for the sovereign debt crisis in which we find ourselves. If we continue to spend with reckless abandon as we have done for decades, then it is simply not possible to ever payoff the money we already owe. Estimates suggest we as a nation owe in excess of $200 trillion in current and future liabilities.
At what point will China and the rest of the world finally say enough is enough?
It won’t be long now.
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How much goes in the front end of an elephant and how much goes out the South end of an elephant? I believe Joe Bidden should do his patriotic duty to suggest that all Libs should pay higher taxes.
China has starting backing away from buying, but the won’t pull the plug and dump what they have. What they WILL, and ARE doing, is running all over the world buying up every type of commodity and land they can get the seller to take US dollars for, to minimize the losses to come.
I suspect the FED is currently buying well over 1/2 the issues of US debt now, either thru giving the banks money to do so, or thru “off shore” banking centers, and possibly even giving incentives to Japan and England to sop up the excess. ( Let’s face it…..GB is as broke as we are…..)
This can’t do anything but increase down the road, and at some point the FED will be putting it directly on their phony “balance sheets”.
The only question remains: When will the rest of the world stop taking our paper for real goods ?
And David Walker is clueless if he thinks the American people have either the resources or the desire to buy US debt in the amount required.
It’s so weird that at this point of time, the Chinese president met with the U.S. president.
My opinion is that this visit is no good for the American people.
The Chinese want something; is it land, is it cheap workers, is it assurance of no hostilities, or maybe withdrawal of the U.S. forces from S.Korea?
Who knows.
It’s certain though that the Chinese can buy us all, unless we do something.
This means that we must start producing again, gain knowledge, and apply it in heavy industry. We also must stop consume chinese crap and urge others to do so.
We must forget this consumer-development model. But how this can be achieved when our own governments support outsourcing and suck Chinese officials for some money.
Where is your pride parliament members?
I’m not racist. I’m just angry.
Manos
Mac you will like this…..
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/guest-post-fourth-american-revolution
It is an old answer,  but quiet frankly, maybe the only answer;   Remonetize gold.   Every western nation has some gold.  Gold needs to be re valued to clear out the debt, so the world economies can function.
So what, if every woman in India is suddenly rich. Â They will become a big consumer market, Â to which China and USA Â can sell into.
So what, if the goldbugs get rich….it will change nothing.  The world didn’t end when a bunch of  dot-com. people became billionaires….. again, the newly rich goldbugs will be consumers.
Fofoa’s  freegold  is looking more and more like the only way.
Patience lostinmissouri. Not until the banks have the shorts covered and they have gone long with physical. Comex fails. Paper goes tango uniform and countries inflate their IOU’s. I’m sure the play book has already been written. They are not stupid.
lostinmissouri
But if the banks tie the US dollar to gold, then they can’t print phantom money out of thin air and proclaim themselves wealthy……. They would actually have to have something to make their  worthless paper valuable and then the scam is up. They have nothing except $10,000 smiles and $5,000 suits.
So let me get this straight. Chinese President Hu openly declares the dollar is history and they aim to make the yuan #1. A couple days later, he shows up here and our president rolls out the red carpet for him, and basically gives President Hu open license to take over, agreeing it is good for the world.Â
Who, then, is looking out for our country? Who is protecting us? Could Mr. Obama really be that global minded, or is he selling us out? Or is he naive? Why is he not just allowing this but encouraging it? China is going to look out for number one – they already are – but then who is looking out for the U.S.? Thoughts anyone?
I didn’t see any mention within Plan E of the forfeiture of gold. This has been done by our government three times in the past eighty years. The first, in 1933, was meant to pay off our (meaning the government’s) creditors. Gold seizures would theoretically allow gov’t to payoff debt. With the for-profit Federal Reserve accumulating the national debt (by lending our money back to our gov’t), the gold would probably end up in the hands of its members–the big banks.
The Argentine example is powerful. Unfortunately the deposits in banks were denominated in Argentine pesos, which lost value. So the foreign creditors (read IMF and predator banks) won’t be content merely with those. They’ll demand austerity in exchange for more loans to our government, thus starting the debt cycle over again, with the new creditors at the top of the pecking order should we default again.
If you understand the Austrian school of economics, you know ALL empires that over-expand devalue the currencies to the point of collapse. Armed with this fact, you could buy a bunch of gold or silver and weather the storm, if you aren’t forced to give them up to the gov’t. I believe the gold seizure was backed by the threat of ten years’ imprisonment.
Better call is to strive for self-sufficiency. Work with neighbors to produce the things you need, starting with renewable sources of food and energy (using wood, biodiesel, solar/wind), which will be the first victims of rampant inflation if bought on the open market. Don’t wait for the big bills to come in the mail! And of course shun rampant consumerism which feeds the debt machine, along with the wars and other forms of unnecessary gov’t spending. Hoarding won’t last, nor will cheap consumer goods.
Here is a possible scenario:
US spends beyond its means.
China finances the spending by buying treasuries.
China lowers holdings of dollars.
China decides yuan will be new reserve currency
China assists slow meltdown of dollar.
China yuan CAN have partial gold backing.
US dollar becomes an internal currency.
Dollar manipulation becomes much easier.
Granted, just a possiblity. It would make govt’s job of determining the value of the dollar far easier when it is an internal currency only. Wage and price controls become meaningful.
Our only ace in the hole is all of our deep storage gold that the U.S. has….Â
You don’t really believe that do you?
People don’t miss the forest for all of the trees. ALL countries are buying gold. Eventually, but not anytime soon, (because ALL of the global mechanisms are not yet in place), the dollar will be replaced by a NWO currency backed by gold and platinum.
In the interim, the dollar will decline in value in relation to the Yuan to attempt to create economic parity between these two engines of world growth. Inflation by a thousand cuts for US; appreciation for the yuan.
As long as China continues to play the game, China wins, because it transfers US dollars to South America, Asia, and Africa for real assts. Why kill the goose that lays the golden eggs?
Five years.
Just one question, I hear a lot said about gold. But how useful do you think silver will be as an investment? I see that silver is down today with gold. Opinions?
Mac, I have this weird feeling that as the gold/silver spot price ratio gets smaller as a few countries default, silver will widen in the ratio as the spread fee goes up for physical. Like what we are seeing now for ASE’s.Â
Manos,
China can’t buy us all. I am not for sale.
Here is a solution. End perpetual corporations. Grant time limited charters for corporations that will serve the public interest. That is how it used to be.Â
Here in Tennessee, perpetuities and monopolies exist in direct violation of the Tennessee Constitution. Ironic that the gov corp pretending to be the constitutional government of Tennessee sits in direct and obvious violation of the document it claims establishes it and grants it power.
I do not deal with a corporation unless it is a cash transaction, with the exception of utilities while I still need them.
The reason the gov does not hear the people is because it is itself a corporation. It no longer consists of the people, but of one man corporations that exist through the blessing of the corporate state. It can only hear what it creates. Just like most of the people in America, it has turned its back on its Creator and no longer hears it.
It is not the people against the government. It is the people against all corporations, government and private. They were invented as criminal vehicles so the owners could violate the law without penalty.  Now it is time to make the more corrupted ones pay the price, and dissolve all others.
If you are a part of the corporation, you are a corporation. I prefer to be a Man and honor the laws of God above those of the corps.
JBPeebles said: “I didn’t see any mention within Plan E of the forfeiture of gold. This has been done by our government three times in the past eighty years. The first, in 1933, was meant to pay off our (meaning the government’s) creditors.”
The purpose of seizing gold in 1933 was not to pay off our creditors….it was to separate us from the notion gold is money, and give the bankers unlimited license to print paper. And it worked well. Today, people have no clue what money is and is not.
When were the other two seizures in the last 80 years ?
JJohnson, you have to buy a ticket to ride the train. If you already have a ticket, upgrade to a pass.
JJohnson: There are many who believe that silver is a better investment than gold because it is 40% below its all time highs, like Jim Rogers.
I think there is a reason that silver is not in lock step with gold and that reason is the massive short positions of the gangster banksters.
However, the master gangster banksters (the central bankster gangsters) are buying MASSIVE amounts of physical gold for their countries. There is a reason for this too. Someday gold and also platinum will once again be the basis for the value of money.
My bet is on gold and platinum.
i believe mushroom.
you must save as many crisp new uncirculated federal reserve ten dollar notes as you can…
plus 1 Nabisco
@Anonymous said: “Mac, I have this weird feeling that as the gold/silver spot price ratio gets smaller as a few countries default, silver will widen in the ratio as the spread fee goes up for physical. Like what we are seeing now for ASE’s. “
I can see this happening… The ratio has been getting smaller recently… There could be a number of reasons for this… we could go into supply/industrial demand discussions and other scenarios, but I am thinking that one of the main reasons for this recent pop in silver and closing of the gold/silver ratio is that as more people realize the economic disaster we are in (globally) the more they want to own something tangible. Gold is one of those assets that’s great to have if you’ve got the money to buy an ounce for $1350 – but for those without the income to purchase an ounce (or even a 1/10 ounce), silver is quite attractive. One can purchase a couple of ounces of silver for $60… not a bad deal if that’s all you have in your discretionary budget each week… They say it’s the poor man’s gold, and I wonder if that is what is driving the closing of the ratio….
That and Max Keiser’s crash JP Morgan campaign… haha… I suspect this had something to do with it — but i think more than anything it brought awareness to the issue of corruption and manipulation by large institutions (private and public) and lots of people realized that this was a way they could not only fight back, but add a little bit of financial security to their lives.
I believe your right DK but a lot tuffer to find a Pt buyer. I see it hitting 2K soon.
“plus 1 Nabisco”
ahahahaaaaa…..come on out of the closet……
JJohnson, never look a smiling gift horse in the mouth to catch the late train. It will get tired catching up to the bullet train as it makes stops to let the people off.
TN Andy,
The other two gold forfeitures were during WW 2.
“The purpose of seizing gold in 1933 was not to pay off our creditors….it was to separate us from the notion gold is money, and give the bankers unlimited license to print paper.”
Have you ever heard of Occam’s Razor? It’s the principle that holds whatever is the most likely cause is most likely to be the cause.
If you had a bunch of gold and I took it, which of the following reasons would be more true?
a) I wanted it for myself or
b) it’s great I have it but possessing the gold is not my primary aim
Trying to bury too many plots doesn’t make sense. Isn’t it safer to assume that gov’t just wanted it because it needed it? No reason for it, exempting of course unpayable quantities of debt and endless wars. Maybe they did it simply because they could.
Besides I’d say Nixon’s abandonment of the gold/silver standard in 1971 was what did in sound money, at least here in the U.S. (also at the end of a costly war).
Now as for the conditioning of the populace to accept fiat money, I don’t think it could be traced to gold forfeiture alone. More threatening I’d say is the people’s concept that things are getting more expensive. They aren’t. It’s the dollar that’s getting weaker.
And bankers have it better than just printing the money, which is done by Printing and Engraving, part of Treasury. The Fed, acting on behalf of its member banks, buys public debt and passes the money (Federal Reserve Notes) back to the Treasury for spending. Participating banks then get interest on that debt and the ability to borrow for less. To return the circle (sustain the Ponzi), banks use the cheap money to buy more Treasuries.
Two things seem to be strongly in play right now, regarding the US, China, currencies, and gold.
The first is, China is apparently taking on the ‘responsibility’ of bailing out our European friends, in what seems foolhardy, knowing they’ll never be able to repay. The idea being, the Chinese know this all too well! And they are about to demand payment in gold if they default on their vig. Already in the contract! Default on both, and China’s borders expand!
Second, is a biggie. Supposed insiders are now claiming that the final pieces are in place for the new NWO currency, to be announced between this April and July. Imagine the impact on our currency then, as well as your metals! It will be backed by gold, at least. The suggestion by the same insiders state that this Chinese visit is a big, fat, dog and pony show. Obama continues to bow to Hu, and China continues to proclaim their dominant status. It seems, they each know how the game ends already, and this is all for sheeps (sheeple/peeps)!
I used to think we would simply destroy our dollar, introduce our own gold-backed currency, break the citizenry overnight (ala Argentina or NK) and stiff the world, certainly inciting a new world war, but be free of our obligations, and cementing the serfdom of all. An evil thing to do, but even that wouldn’t have shocked me.
The new currency is said to actually be the SDR. It’s been refuted, I know. But it seems to be the final choice.
Ditto on the massive short covering on silver today! Yikes! It’s all scary as hell UNTIL that last ounce gets delivered, then the madness begins in earnest! The more they slam the price, the more buyers jump in and strip the supply!
I missed a HUGELY important point to the China/US scenario above. With each party knowing of the currency to come, we must first crash the reserve currency to begin anew. It’s all going to happen very precipitously and violently very soon, in terms of the dollar decline. The sooner it crashes, the sooner the NWO can shift into the next gear. If you don’t have your metals now, get on it!
Here’s an audio interview from Steve Quayle’s site the other day. It explains this ‘insider biz’. It gets pretty scriptural, but whether that’s your thing or not, the info is worth weighing. Lots of scripture quoting on this site anyway, so it should be a non-issue. But whether you’re a believer or not, you must admit, the parallels to the Bible are getting scarily similar to today’s events.
http://www.trunews.com/Audio/1_14_11_friday_trunews2.mp3
Dont’ forget that after Frankie the Limper stole the people’s gold in 33 then he revalued it by about 40%. He needed the money to flood the economy and pay for his socialist programs. Couldn’t have people owning gold and getting 40% richer overnight. It was just a big rip off in the true communist style with an American happy face painted on it.
Interesting about the WW2 confiscation. I have never heard of it but who had any gold after Frankie?
No, @Dave .. I am not inclined to entertain economic/financial news & outlook from those that believe in great cosmic muffins and seek to introduce that into the real world equation.
Sure, I’m always open to a coherent argument that stands on its own merit … but don’t expect to invoke ‘holy spirits”, “heavenly father” and the like and think that I’ll take you seriously.
JBPeebles said, “TN Andy, The other two gold forfeitures were during WW 2.”
I have read a lot of history (too much in fact) I’ve never heard of such, got any links or more specific details?
You have it figured now Dave….. Where many are (will) get frustrated, stay the course and don’t change your thinking. Knowledge is power if you are prepared and that is what many of us are doing here because of Mac. Thank you Mac!
JBPebles:Â Â I think you’re making up facts.
How could there have been confiscations in WW2 when the public didn’t have gold ( other than the tiny quantity of numismatics ) left after 1993 ? Anyone with REAL amounts of private gold had it off shore.
Cite a source, please.
As I stated….the purpose was to separate the notion that gold was money.  WHY else would they have included the nullification of gold contracts ?
Gold contracts, for those unaware of them, became popular after the late 19th century Supreme court case in which paper fiat was declared equal to gold. Once a debt was created, it could be paid in either…..so people began writing contracts for settlement ONLY in gold. The 1933 laws banned that. Why ? TO SEPARATE THE IDEA THAT GOLD WAS MONEY.
As for using gold to “pay our debts”…..that doesn’t fly with history. Go to US DEBT TO THE PENNY ( Treasury website ) and look under historical data.
The US debt at the end of WW1 was 27 billion ( yeah….billion….those WERE the good ole days ! ), but by 1931, had been paid down to 16 billion…..a 45% reduction in 12 years !  It started climbing again thru the depression years, reaching 48 billion at the start of WW2 ( and then it was off to the races, almost never to see a year of reduction since ).Â
So we didn’t “pay our debts in gold”…..we put it on the National Credit Card.  The only thing the 1933 confiscation DID do was screw everyone holding paper dollars out of 75% of their value when Roosevelt declared $20 gold is now $35 gold….that isn’t “paying debt”….that’s just declaring bankruptcy and settling for 40 cents on the dollar. I’m amazed the world put up with it.
Gold didn’t REALLY start leaving the US TO PAY DEBTS in mass amounts until the French began to make a run on the US pile in the 60’s, realizing the US was printing their way out of the Vietnam war and Great Society debt. THAT is why Nixon was forced to close the “gold window”.  And again, the world put up with it.Â
I never cease to be amazed how we can keep screwing the rest of the world with paper promises we have no intention of keeping, AND THEY KEEP COMING BACK FOR MORE !
For the record, I am personally not a religious person. But I do leave my mind open to any parallels that present themselves during these great days of change. Stay myopic, and you will miss some fascinating clues to this puzzle.
And has anyone arrived at something that’s also concerning me? The 1099 issue. I found it irritating and very nefarious to sneak that into the Health Care bill like everyone else, but now, its more than that. Look at the timing of its implementation. If they don’t begin this until 2012, will people begin to now think to themselves, “Well, if gold or silver goes to the moon, cashing it in will present a host of issues at even the smallest level.”
Is this now causing people to think about cashing in with whatever they gain before this year is out, to avoid the reporting? Thus, making available a huge quantity of easy pickin’s for the FED when the new year starts? Think about it.
So many of us will hold out until a new currency arises, which as I mentioned, may come this year anyway. But why confiscate what people will surely turn in to ‘stay out of the system’? Any thoughts?
And by the way, does anyone find Eric Schmidt’s stepping down the least bit suspicious? Taking a ‘lower profile’ position with Google, and handing the reigns back to Page? Mind you, Schmidt was present at the most recent Bilderberg meeting, Google still pays no taxes, and have just relocated to Manhattan as their HQ. Just to be closer to the den of thieves, maybe? Hmmmm. Thoughts on that are also welcome!
Now you know why Judge Rolls was assasinated in AZ a couple of weeks ago. They weren’t after Giffords. Rolls had blocked Obama from snatching control of the pensions in AZ. Watch to see who is appointed(designated hitter) to replace him. The confiscation will move forward.
Dave:
The 1099 thing isn’t about metals…..it’s about catching all the independent contractors that are under/not paying taxes. Buy forcing HomeDepot/etc, to 1099 all the folks they receive more than 600 bucks from in a year by cash/check, the IRS will be able to track the purchases of folks. Buy enough lumber to build your house a deck ? ( say 2,000 )…..you won’t hear from the IRS….but you go in every week and buy 1,000 bucks worth of materials and it doesn’t show on your Schedule C ( or you don’t even file one ), and they’re gonna come knocking. There is a WHOLE LOT MORE MONEY in the underground economy that all the gold buy/selling….and they’re after that underground money.
If you sell a pile of metals today, believe me, the dealer IS gonna 1099 you TODAY…..that already exists….and has for years…..same as if you walk into a car dealership and pay cash ( and I mean physical cash, not a bank check ) for a new car…..that will get you a currency transaction report.
TnAndy, good observations there, and along the lines of what I’ve felt as well (i.e. single transactions of $2k and the like, no big thing. Weekly…a different story). So yes, taxes are certainly the paramount issue for them, but I think it kills two birds with one stone. Relinquishing metals before D-Day, and the masses avoid further hassle. Feds get their taxes, and a steady stream of available (and needed) metals, to supplement the coming raid of 401ks and pension cash. Whatever the intent, the hiring of so many new IRS agents to enforce this law, does not bode well. And they’ve had specially commissioned shotguns for the agents. As one person put it (maybe even Mac?), it seems the velvet glove has now come off the iron fist. Play time has ended, me thinks.
For now, it’s all about staying under the $10k per transaction ceiling to avoid the sirens and flashing lights it triggers. Once lowered it to $600 per trans, and that’s whole ‘nother ballgame.
Buy used car/truck from individual that just drove off the parking lot Nabisco.
Tom S in LV has a great point when he mentions “Interesting about the WW2 confiscation. I have never heard of it but who had any gold after Frankie?”
Â
Can’t document my source on two specific seizures during WWII. Roosevelt certainly had the authority to do it, which is the same as saying John Q. Citizen had no right to hold gold, nor any private enterprise. I do know that the end of the war was a time of extreme fiscal stress for the U.S.. We were in short broke.
Â
For statistical comparison, look at the % of GNP for that period; we’re approaching the 90% level like we did then. Ask yourself does not the motive persist? Aren’t the conditions ripe for an outright seizure? And on the course we are, it’s just a matter of time when it happens, not if.
Â
I googled “gold forfeitures ww 2” and found these:
Â
from http://www.swissconfederationinstitute.org/paradiselost.htm
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“During the Great Depression, Franklin Roosevelt confiscated all privately held gold in the United States and forced its sale to the Federal government at an artificially low price. He also closed all banks and restricted withdrawals and even the cashing of checks and bank drafts. Roosevelt used his >>>war powers<<< to prohibit the import, export or holding of currency, securities or precious metals as the pretext for this massive gold confiscation and theft.”
from Treasury came this link describing the law:
http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/Documents/twea.pdf
These are the Wartime and Emergency Powers granted to the President. Congress legalizes the President’s action at times or “war” or “national emergency.” We know after 9-11 that these can mean anything. Obama’s extended these powers even now, 9 years after the event.
Then there’s what Congress doesn’t explicitly authorize. Through signing statements and directives, new extralegal powers are constantly being declared, adding power to the Presidential monolith.
JBPeebles:Â You “gold confiscation bugs” have missed the two greatest confiscations of all time, proving that the USA was not broke after WWII, but the richest country on the planet.
The Japanese literally raped all of SE Asia and confiscated the wealth of every nation it invaded (especially their gold). That gold was melted down then hidden by General Yamoto in the Phillipines and captured by the US. read: Yamoto’s Gold. Its a great read.
Much of Hitler’s gold was also captured and confiscated: thus the “8,000 tons” of gold in our possession at the end of the war.
> China has already been taking steps
> to curb their US Treasury purchases
China has also taken steps that may dramatically
increase U.S. debt-rollover and new-borrowing costs.
Are we aware of China’s downgrading of U.S. debt from AAA to AA
in July 2010?:
http://seekingalpha.com/article/214423-china-downgrades-u-s-debt-and-ceases-increase-in-treasury-holdings
Are we aware of China’s further downgrading of U.S. debt from AA
to A+ with negative outlook in November 2010?
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-11-09/china-s-dagong-downgrades-u-s-to-a-on-quantitative-easing-xinhua-says.html
Forfeiture definitely occurred in 1944 and 1945. Apparently Gold Double Eagles were confiscated from private investors. The timing of the seizures indicates gov’t was definitely looking for privately held gold and taking it.
http://www.goldrushgallery.com/news/faroukcoin.html
That article list a dozen or so coins seized or given up. Being that no one was supposed to have these coins they were quite valuable.
More to this story, as Durango Kid brings up. The theft of stolen Nazi gold apparently went through the Bank of Int’l Settlements. Plus the U.S. limited the legal rights of countries from which it liberated gold. These exceptions were made part of the Bretton Woods agreement. They basically legalized the transfer, an issue which came up in the mid-90s with Jewish victims’ descendants looking for what had been taken.
Now I don’t think the stolen stolen gold would have made its way to the Treasury or Fort Knox. Most likely it was given to industrialists in the victorious countries who were owed. This is where the seized gold would go, not to the people. It might be replaced with tungsten blanks…
One other thing, this from Murray Rothbard (Writer of what Has Gov’t Done to Our Money, a must read.) This from his book Taking Money Back:
“…from 1933 until the 1970s, it continued to be illegal for any Americans to own monetary gold of any kind, whether coin or bullion or even in safe deposit boxes at home or abroad. All these measures, supposedly drafted for the Depression emergency, have continued as part of the great heritage of the New Deal ever since.”
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So, no, none of what I said I “made up.”
rhea said, “The earth does not have enough resources to provide higher standard of living for all the people in the world.”
That is preposterous.
Unless the world becomes dominated by the Socialist or the Communist and the watermelons.
(Watermelons are environmentalist who are green on the outside and communist red on the inside.)
Others have done the math, All the people on the planet could fit inside the state of Texas and everyone could have about an acre of land.
At today’s rate of food production currently, we can support over 8 billion people (Baylor University student did the math) and there are millions of agricultural lands laying idle in government set aside programs and that’s not to mention all the undeveloped land throughout the world.
Somebody’s been feeding you a line of lies.
The more people there are – under a free-market system – the higher the standard of living gets.
JBPeebles said, “During the Great Depression, Franklin Roosevelt confiscated all privately held gold in the United States”
That’s simply Not true.
Individuals could still own up to Five Ounces of gold (it’s written in the executive order and backed up by historical testimony) that was a Lot of money back then.
I read a good article that showed (using the laffler curve?) confiscation would never happen, diminishing returns and such. Can’t find the URL though.
And, rhea, there’s this:
“…there is not a fixed amount of wealth available in the world, and… poverty is not caused by certain people having unequal shares of that fixed amount… the standard of living of the poor is directly correlated to the number of wealthy people in society, because people only become wealthy through voluntary exchange on the market by first improving the standard of living of others.”
“The only way to increase everyone’s standard of living is by increasing the amount of capital per worker. Additional capital makes workers more productive, which means they can produce more goods than before. When our economy becomes physically capable of producing vastly more goods, their abundance makes them more affordable in terms of dollars (if the Federal Reserve isn’t inflating the money supply)… investing in capital makes everyone better off. It is the only way we can all become wealthier. We are wealthier today because our economy is physically capable of producing so much more at far lower costs…”
http://www.lewrockwell.com/kramer/kramer15.html
JB: The thing about the Nazi gold was that some of it was traceable to the holocaust victims, etc. The stolen Japanese gold was resmelted, leaving no trace so it couldn’t be “repatriated”.
Lucky for US.
ahahahaaaaaa…..THAT’s your “proof” Pebles ? Â
That the govt went after a dozen 1933 Eagles that weren’t supposed to have left the mint in 1933 to start with, but somebody slipped them out the back door ?
See….you made out like it was some new round of GOLD CONFISCATIONS that took place during WW2, when it fact, it was just a TINY mop up of the theft act of 1933.
For that matter, you forgot the one that took place a few years ago, where the govt was STILL going after a 1933 eagle that was in private hands.
JBPeebles said, ““…from 1933 until the 1970s, it continued to be illegal for any Americans to own monetary gold of any kind, whether coin or bullion or even in safe deposit boxes at home or abroad.”
It seems to me there has to be a bit more to that, it does not mesh with what is written in the Executive Order.
Our only friend globally, if you can call them that is England. When the dollar starts it’s irreversible plunge, the rest of the world will not be aligning resources to help the US, but rather for speculative investing against US interests. It’s a normal recipe of how to capitalize on the loss of one powers monetary grip, by seizing hard money directed investment, that America is soon to lose globally.
I mean why do you think Wall Street and the national banks, brokerage houses and other local puppets, have been orchestrated to channel trillions of American dollars into international banking conduits? To re-rape and pillage the new losses (absorbed by your zombies in Congress, the white house and the senate, governors, etc), for their gain, with money they stole from their own dead investments in America, since World War II, reinvested abroad, at the expense of the American pension, and state coffers, to name a few of the securitization vehicles: Your Money. And where is a huge part of that re-investment out of America going? To other middle classes, like India, China and Brazil, who are just entering a boom like Americas post World War II decade. What kind of a fool can’t see that? Me… But now I see.
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And secondly, they fund their own enemies, with degraded, older quality military technologies, to also keep that big profit machine rolling along. So where is the oil trillions from Iraq, now well in hand going? Where is the heroine trillions of Afghanistan going? You guessed it, not into a doomed American investment quarter, but to the very same places, topically described above. Now Chinese neighborhoods, New Brazilian dams, mines, airports and bridges. New Indian metropolises, hotels, urban infrastructure, security technologies, and everything else they developed in America, to profit from on emergent middle classes elsewhere. In the eyes of the corporate financial jetsetter, with profit as the rule, America is not a profit generating society. Well, unless it’s crystal meth, crack, and pornography you are selling, which is the investment behemoths, in black and clandestine capital reverse infusion, which is being directed at all Americas cities, which will equal a social decadence and degradation, that only an atomic bomb can cure. A chemical, and financial recipe, for pure, hard hitting, from the top of the world to the bone crushing gutter, national collapse.
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Maybe we should all actually listen to what a Jehovah’s Witness has been telling us for 20 years. They seem to be the only people who have seen this coming for 5 decades, at least.