An article of faith?
Controversial and startling new evidence is casting light on a part of Jesus’ life that was not previously known, and appears to provide documentary evidence of his work. A lead tablet artifact contains noteworthy references and at least some of the details of his life, and is now the oldest discovered record of early Christianity.
This engraved and encoded metallic booklet/tablet not only mentions Jesus by name, as well as several of his disciples, but it describes some new details about his ministry and work.
However, this artifact will not be readily accepted by many in the Christian church. It has already undergone intense scrutiny and claims of forgery.
But new testing proves that it cannot be so easily dismiss, and does authenticate to the historical period in question.
via Daily Mail:
An ancient set of lead tablets showing the earliest portrait of Jesus Christ have proved to be around 2,000 years old, according to experts.
The metal ‘pages’, held together like a ring binder, were found in Jordan in around 2008 by an Jordanian Bedouin and make reference to Christ and his disciples.
The lead has been analysed and the words and symbols translated and experts say the tablets date from within a few years of Jesus’ ministry.
The codices are covered in eight-pointed stars, symbolic of the coming of the messiah, and they mention the name of Jesus. They also contain the names of apostles James, Peter and John.
These would be the earliest and only Hebrew-Christian documents in existence – and linguistic and metallurgical analysis now suggests they are.
These codices were previously believed to be disproved, and remain highly controversial, as experts announced in 2011 that they had determined it to be a forgery that featured out-of-date writing styles.
This has put authors and historians David and Jennifer Elkington in the crosshairs of controversy, as they have been campaigning for recognition of the documents:
Authors David and Jennifer Elkington have been campaigning since 2009 for the codices to be recognised and protected but say evangelical Christians are trying to brand them fakes.
David Elkington, 54, of Gloucestershire, says he is now trying to prevent the codices from being sold on the black market.
In 2011 Elkington announced their discovery on BBC News and the world’s press followed it up. But a number of scholars came forward to brand them fakes, most without ever seeing the codices.
According to LiveScience.com back in 2011:
“I noticed there were a lot of Old Aramaic forms that were at least 2,500 years old. But they were mixed in with other forms that were younger, so I took a closer look at that and pulled out all the distinct forms that I could find,” Caruso told Life’s Little Mysteries, a sister site to LiveScience. “It was very, very odd — I’ve never seen this kind of mix before.” The youngest scripts he identified, called Nabatean and Palmyrene, date from the second and third centuries, proving the documents could not possibly have been written during the dawn of Christianity, Caruso said.
“There were inconsistencies in how they did the stroke order, which you would never have seen. Scribes had very specific ways of doing things,” Caruso said. Furthermore, several characters appeared “flipped” — a mistake that would imply they were hastily copied rather than original.
However, new testing on the dates of the metals confirms that the artifact is authentic in that it derived from the time period around that which Jesus lived in – whatever else the document may bring to light, it could not have been forged in the last 50 years – as previous skeptics claims – based on the lead samples.
Indeed, scientific examination of the metal confirms the codices are approximately 1,800 to 2,000 years old.
According to the Daily Mail:
Now tests conducted by Professor Roger Webb and Professor Chris Jeynes at the University of Surrey’s Nodus Laboratory at the Ion Beam Centre, confirm that the tablet is compatible with a comparative sample of ancient Roman lead unearthed from an excavation site in Dorset.
The experts said that the codex they tested ‘does not show the radioactivity arising from polonium that is typically seen in modern lead samples…. ‘This is not witnessed in lead objects that are several centuries old and is not possible to produce by artificial acceleration (e.g. through heating).
The alleged, or apparent, focus of Jesus’ ministry on the Temple of Solomon and the ‘resurrection’ of an older religious system dating to King Solomon and King David of the Bible is seemingly more consistent with esoteric sects and cults that recognized an androgynous (combined male and female) god than with the popularly known conception of Christ and the heavenly father. Some interpretations have suggested that it is the ‘Holy Ghost’ who embodies both the male and female.
Regardless of one’s personal interpretation or religious persuasion, these are interesting developments that fall outside of the mainstream of the modern church. As the Daily Mail reported:
Central to the books is the idea that Christ promoted worship in Solomon’s Temple where the very face of God was believed to be seen – and this is where the episode with the moneylenders in the Bible came from.
According to the Elkingtons the books suggest Christ was part of a Hebrew sect dating back 1,000 years to King David, who worshipped in the Temple of Solomon and believed in a male-female God.
‘A part of the older tradition of the Temple was the Divine Feminine – known to Christians as the Holy Spirit. Jesus had women involved in his ministry.
In the Bible Jesus is referred to as a ‘tekton’ which is usually translated as ‘carpenter’ but actually means a skilled craftsman and could refer to the skill of producing such works in metal.
On the other hand, a more detailed analysis of the writings and symbols may connect it with the existing understanding of Christian scripture.
The full impact of the document has yet to play out, and whether or not it will even be widely recognized as a new source of ancient religious doctrine remains to be seen, though some historians are now claiming that it may be the most significant find since the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered back in the 40s and 50s.
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If it is real – it will never see the light of day. The current set of Christian religions would never dare question or consider anything as this. It would be too great a threat to their businesses. If it is fake, that we shall hear immediately. But…. like all else, the truth may be there; but, most of us will never know.
You got that right. Where is the holy grail or ark of the covenant?
I didn’t read anything here about the book expressing some kind of paradigm shifting scripture, so I don’t see a reason why this will be wholesale rejected. It may be fake, it may not be. Just another piece of the puzzle.
Doesn’t matter, it’s all just fiction anyways.
Don’t confuse organized religion with God and Jesus
But you can.
I was not raised a Christian. I also have two graduate degrees. I became a Christian *precisely* because I “questioned my questions.” In fact, the person who is perhaps THE most responsible for what constitutes the rules of legal evidence in the US is Simon Greenleaf of Harvard Univ., who was Jewish (this was in the later 1800s).
Turns out Greenleaf was challenged by a student to investigate the evidence for the resurrection. He had the intellectual honesty to do just that. This man – again, who is responsible for what constitutes if YOU OR I go to jail relative to evidence – became a Christian, based on the research he did (Yale law school grad Lee Strobel is a modern example of this. I assume you have done the due diligence of investigating his work?), later penning The Testimony of the Evangelists. He is not the first. E.g., Lew Wallace, who penned Ben Hur, also set out to debunk Christianity.
My question is this: have you done your due diligence relative to the veracity of Christianity?
And “business?” I know many pastors who have lived on what almost amounts to starvation wages, all for their love for Christ. You cynicism does great dishonour to these men I know personally (yes, of course there are frauds out there… but of course, people only try to counterfeit things when the real thing both exists, and is of great value). Not too long ago, we took care of a young half Mexican/half black young man, whose parents were murdered when he was 13. You will never know my name, so I feel free to say this – and no, we don’t have a lot of money — and we even paid for his CMA (medical training). How did we “financially gain” from that? And we do ZILCH compared to other people I know.
You were faithful with the talents given
Some questions I have. King David never worshiped in Solomon’s temple as it was built after his death by his son Solomon. Jesus never worshiped in Solomon’s temple as it was destroyed by the Babylonians in like 586 bc. The temple Jesus worshiped in was Herod’s temple which was a remodel of the one began in Ezra and Nehemiah’s time some 70 years after the Babylonian captivity. Also the star should have 6 points not 8. Could this have been written by someone who had some knowledge of this time and these people but maybe didn’t have it all right…And Truth does not fear a challenge. Feed the sheep!
“Therefore when thou dost an almsdeed, sound not a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be honoured by men. Amen I say to you, they have received their reward.”
Matthew 6:2
So, you need not only to remind us about your self-vaunted intellect, but now your supposed charity.
The current set of Christian religions would never dare question or consider anything as this?????
The current set of Christian values are over two thousand years old, so what “current” are you talking about?
Where do I start?? Perhaps with the reinterpretation of the bible(Scofield), worshipping Israel instead of God, the unbiblical “purpose driven” metachurches…
Don’t mistake perversions for Christianity. There are lots of religions perversions of Christianity.
“If it is real – it will never see the light of day.”
Yet is has seen the light of day. And you are reading about it. So, by your postulate, it cannot be real because you read about it.
Heartless, you are absolutely correct. The established churches and Christian based religions do not want ANY perspective or view other than what they have created. All one need do is to read the Dead Sea Scrolls and Nag Hamaddi text and it will be abundantly clear that the established churches are based on false and created information. Of course anybody can do this today because it is all readily available easily because it is all translated. Ever since Constantine came along we have been spoon fed a distorted story. It was all just a way to control the masses with the original church of the Roman empire, the original Catholic church that came about from the councils of Laodicia and other gatherings and councils of high priest and Roman rulers at the time. If I could read and find this out, anybody can as well. There is in fact many other ancient documents not just this one of lead that have been found that go back 2000 years and more. Just prior to the new testament is the time frame in question and there is a very different story in the ancient text out there today than the story created by Constantine and his crew of supposed high priest. They were trying to suppress the teachings and writings of the Gnostics and the Essenes and a few others and that is what this is all about ! Jesus actually was a real person, but he was not who and what they claimed him to be ? he was even better and far more righteous !
It reminds me exactly of the manipulations, lies and distortions of PRAVDA/MSM today and our current government trying to mind fuck the populace and control them to their supposed benefit. Back then it was also a political control mechanism and has morphed into what we see today here in USSA ! Nothing at all has changed in 2000+ years in the minds and hearts of men, in fact some of it has only grown to be worse ! all explained at my site for free
It was well known that Jesus did travel to Britany for the purpose of mining copper.
Religion works plenty well for Pastor Joel Olsteen, he is now worth hundreds of millions of dollars. lol
And in a day, Leftie Sheeple bleated up millions for Dr. JillkenStein. Just no accounting for “taste” these days anywhere.
Semper aliquid novi ex Graecam est.
People have itching ears, and constantly look about for something to give them something to use to interpret the Word of God.
But this something has already been given; it occurred at Pentecost in the Upper Room; and this Spirit leads us into all truth.
The Word of God can only be interpreted through the Spirit of God; and without that Spirit to guide us, and to reveal the beauty of the Son of God to us; we remain poor, and naked, and blind.
Seek ye the Lord whilst He may be found; call unto Him in the day of your distress, and He will answer you, and give you something other than the filthy rags represented by these pieces of metal, that your joy may be full.
We already know it is fake because the New World Order of the Jews control the science religion aiming to destroy Christian civilization before they bring in the Antichrist to rule a one world government. Some of us have a direct relationship with God which actually proves itself to those who accept the truth, we don’t need to have a useless belief that could be false.
As long as they do not present Jesus as a transgender pedophil I do not mind.
Howerver not presenting him as trandgender pedophil may lead to a hate speech conviction. The historians should watch out…
Transgendered people are not pedophiles you fucking knuckle dragging mouthbreather piece of shit.
TRIGGERED!
Time to go to your safe space…
How’s that recount going, Rachel?
PFFFF
Not all knuckle draggers are mouth-breathing chunks of shit you hateful snowflake!
You just said that transgender people aren’t pedophiles really like you know that for a fact and I suppose you think there normal to and there not a psychologist that I knew that worked for the department of corrections said that all of the transgender and fags, lesbians, so on and so forth have some kind of mental illness and they do that’s a fact no matter what you say they are a crime against nature and a sin against God
It is said Jesus was a Palestinian, which is probably why the Jews Persecuted and murdered him. That vile hate has been going on for 2000 years.
What’s truly amazing, is how many people still today follow this ancient teaching based on thin air, with no proof or facts. In fact, they follow this low IQ info source as scripture, which fails to account for all the progress and advances in Science of the 21st century, biology, history, geology, astrology, DNA, or even the times before 2000 years ago, like dinosaurs, carbon dating, platonic earth shifts, global flooding, the age of the Grand Canyon, etc. They stretch the truth so much, the unexplained phenomenon’s can only be summed up as some magical wand waving miracle.
Noah’s Arc? Pure fantasy and Fraud. The Bible is mixed with fiction to illustrate a teachable point, but certainly is not valid in any sense with the common laws of nature. And when the teachings become out dated they rewrite and retranslate these subjected scripture as a new version. KJ, or Old testament, or new or modern of what ever fits their needs to keep their 501(c)3 tax free status. Try beating women today, like in the Old Testament, if they are not obedient to a mans every wishes. That may still work in Saudi Arabia, but not here in the states. Religion is oppressive, dumbing down the populace to think rationally and just pure pollution and nonsense of the brain.
Oh and when you question a Believer of this Babble they like to call you an atheist. How nice. I consider my self more of a Truth seeker. And dismiss the BS clutter immediately. Oh look, the Virgin Mary on a Piece of toast. Its a Miracle. Sell it on Ebay to some stupid religious cult sheep for Big Bucks as they try to cling on to any source of assumed validity.
I remember the Good Old days when everybody was happy with the Greek Gods like Zeus, Poseidon, Apollo, Nike, Aries, etc..
My point here is people are a product of their dumbed down environment in which they were raised and live in geographic location. If you grew up in Iraq, you would think Allah was all the rage, or in China or Viet Nam where Buddha is worshiped. But here in the states it just happens to be dominated by Christians which is more profound in the Bible belt. So on goes the FAITH which is just a set of beliefs, absent of any proof or facts, as defined by Webster’s dictionary.
Poor thing.
in all seriousness–I’m still praying for you.
~peace
That is Proof grandee, praying does NOT work.
Zeus:
I was the same as you, thinking that the Bible was nothing but wishful thinking
mythology. However, I direct you to Josh McDowell’s book: “Evidence That Demands a Verdict, Vol. 1.” It is truly the best book for evaluating what we should consider when looking at the evidence. IF THE EVIDENCE IS THERE, WILL YOU BELIEVE? It challenges the intellectual in a way that I have not found too often in other texts.
I get the reference. No Google needed.
Noah’s ark is fantasy? A very similar narrative can be found in the Epic of Gilgamesh, written around the same time in history.
Doc, there are MASSIVELY more cultures that have flood stories. And I mean massive. To date, anthropologists have collected between 250 and 300 such flood stories Howard F. Vos, Genesis and Archaeology (Chicago: Moody Press, 1963), p. 32. Vos, in the following pages gives an excellent summary of some of the most significant ancient accounts and suggests their relationship to the Genesis account. Also see http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths-lang.html or
Sorry if I missed the original from Zeus – with all due respect, and without malice at all (and I do wish him well), I have ceased reading his posts, as IMHO – and this is my opinion only without knowing him – he is not interested in a full interchange, and I am not interested in what is colloquially called an “internet p*ssing match,” which is what my original interchange degenerated into. I am more interested in light than heat.
Speaking of which, *if* the great flood was global, not local (it may have been the latter, I have seen credible people explain it both ways), where did the water come from?
Science now has an answer. These stories had ZERO to do with the Genesis account and are from Northwestern Univ and the reliably leftist Business (Crony) Insider. See https://news.northwestern.edu/stories/2014/06/new-evidence-for-oceans-of-water-deep-in-the-earth or http://www.businessinsider.com/scientists-may-have-discovered-the-origin-of-earths-water-2015-11?r=UK&IR=T (I do not like Business Insider as it is invariably leftist, and totally in the tank for BIG GREEN MONEY faux global warming, but still…
Sorry, my post was unclear above. I meant the research cited was not done with any inkling of how it applies to the Flood account.
And also I am referring to Genesis 7:11. “In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the ***fountains of the great deep broken up,*** and the windows of heaven were opened…” (italics mine)
Agnostic is a better place to be. ^_^
Perks of believing in a creature, without all the downsides of nonsensical religions ceremony… (The worse being the brutal mutilation of male babies.)
So which is it then? As an agnostic, was Christ a liar? Perhaps a lunatic? Maybe a legend? As former atheist/agnostic CS Lewis – who was described as the most brilliant man at Oxford after WWII – once said:
“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: “I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept His claim to be God.” That is the one thing we must not say. A man who said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell.
You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”
Ah, but you choose door #3, the legend route? I refer you to former atheist and cold case detective J. Warner Wallace’s book Cold Case Christianity (Youtube site at https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLe2_rdg84anAv47N1JAHIMaF58QxVRQr )
As Lewis said about his atheism, and warned other atheists: You can NEVER be too careful in what you read, as you might find God breaking through in a way you never expected. Perhaps like even this web site….
The way the people knew when Jesus was to be born in Bethlehem was a prophecy from the book of Daniel and many scholars say the book of Daniel was written many centuries before Christ. The Bible is clear that those who are wise will understand the truth and those who are lost will not. Sixty two and Seven weeks or 483 years from the decree to build the temple under Artaxerxes was fulfilled when Jesus appeared as the King riding on a donkey into Jerusalem. The next 7 weeks have not been fulfilled yet, but if we have eyes to see and ears to hear, the great sign in the book of the Revelation is showing up next year on Sept 23rd, 2017. The Bible says in Chapter 12 of the book of the Revelation there will be a great sign, a woman clothed with the sun, the moon at her feet and twelve stars above her head and ready to be birthed. That exact configuration appeared one other time in 3914 BC and that according to scholars was the time of Adam and Eve. Christians know we are very close to the end, because when they call good evil and evil good, we are almost there. Left up your heads for your redemption draweth nigh. Those who scoff will no longer scoff when they see him coming in the clouds with great glory.
YOU’RE A IDIOT, SPEAKING OUT OF STUPIDITY LIKE MOST THAT LACK KNOWLEDGE OF HIS TRUTH …
IF YOU WANT TO BE A COMPLETE IDIOT, GREAT BUT DON’T SHARE WITH OTHERS YOUR COMPLETE IGNORANCE OF GOD’S TRUTH AND EVIDENCE OF HISTORICAL FACTS THAT HAVE BEEN PROVEN …
AND ANOTHER THING STUPID PERSON, JESUS WAS NEVER A PALESTINIAN THAT TRULY SHOWS HOW MUCH ” TRUTH ” YOU SEEK . . . HIS NAME
(JESUS) MEANS MESSIAH AND HE IS REFERRED TO AS JESUS FROM THE VERY MOMENT OF HIM STARTING HIS MESSAGE TO THE PEOPLE …
YOU DON’T ‘SPOUT’ TRUTH YOU SPEAK OUT RIGHT LIES AND DECEPTION MUST BE A TRUE FOLLOWER OF SATAN – KNOWN AS THE FATHER OF LIARS..
AS FAR AS THE ARC IS CONCERNED, IT TOO EXIST AND IT HAS BEEN DISCOVERED BURIED AT THE TOP OF MT, ARARAT, GO LOOK IT UP ON YOUTUBE OR IT THAT TOO DIFFICULT FOR YOU A DARK SOUL THAT HATES THE MESSAGE OF HOPE ?
Archeological finds are interesting and artifacts useful in evidencing history; but nothing substitutes for a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, to expand your mind, strengthen your spirit, and stabilize your life and personality.
Nothing. 🙂
Actually understanding who you really are and taking your own “Inner Journey” is what Jesus was teaching and far more important. But most cannot grasp this simple fact and have to rely on men or religions to gain any real knowledge. Jesus was never about any religion and in fact spoke against the churches of the day.
All knowledge and understanding is already inside each of us. We simply have to learn how to use it and tap into it correctly. That is exactly what Jesus was preaching.
Down to earth. Sorry, don’t buy that one. If I may respectfully submit, first, your comment smacks of solipsism. It is not an Oprah-like “inner journey,” and there is no “god” inside use – that is monism/pantheism – which, BTW, says that God is both good AND evil. Rather, it is an OUTER journey, outside of ourselves, to connect with a risen Lord. We submit to His will, which we learn about as we grow in Him via His word.
Why did Christ have problems with the church of his day then? Self-righteousness and the fact that they were using the church of the day as an inoculation against a a real vibrant personal relationship with Christ.
My proposition is very simple to you: Perform an experiment. Assuming you really mean this, ask God – whatever you know of Him – if he exists, if He revealed Himself in Christ, and to show Himself to you. If you just want a magic show, don’t expect much. But if you really and honestly are open to God in your own heart, then sit back and watch what happens. How difficult is that?
It’s all pretty simple, and cost no one anything other than being honest within oneself.
Test I agree with some of your points , but you completely missed what I am saying. I am not at all anti Jesus, I just realize we have been sold a lot of lies and distortions about who and what he really was. And I am definitely not of any sophistic thesis or thinking. all of my thoughts are based on many years of research and massive reading of ancient scriptures as well as the Bible. Few realize the Bible is in fact an incomplete work and was greatly censored from the get go by Constantine and crew and that fact changes everything we have been spoon fed for 2000 years ! I did all of this simply to know the truth of the matter and very glad I did spend the time to do so. I am not saying the current Bible is worthless, not at all, but it does need to be reconsidered as being censored and an incomplete work by men not God. It is also mostly allegorical and euphamistic. In the end it is a history book and the OT is more credible than the NT in some ways
Fake codices and letters have been around even when Jesus walked the earth. Numerous times in the New Testament does the writers warn of false shepherds carrying fake letters in order to get good treatment from the other believers.
This is the first time I have ever heard of a book written in lead. All the manuscripts from that time period were written on papyrus, even the dead sea scrolls.
So why is it that all these “newly discovered” manuscripts always reject the written Word of God?
Not true copper was also used.
J Stiner, because what you thought was the written word of God was the written word of men, not God ? You need to do your research for truth and it will be obvious once you have all the info. Most people do not realize what has happened and why ?
DowntoEarth. Cold Case Christianity, by former atheist and cold case investigator J. Wallace Wallace deals exactly with your comment. Your critique is extremely important to ask. Question is, there are extremely erudite people who have written on exactly this topic, such as Wallace. In fact, it was your very question above that drove me, year ago as a non-Christian, to investigate further out of intellectual honesty.
I’m not asking you to come to the same conclusion as me. I would ask you, however, if in fact you have done even rudimentary investigation into the topic. Lee Strobel (J.D. from Yale) also has several highly readable books on the topic
Yes I have to include reading the Dead Sea Scrolls and Nag Hamaddi myself as well as many other ancient text that have come to our presence in the last 100 years. I had to read people like Elaine Pagels to even understand how to read the Nag Hamaddi so this has been a very long winded endeavor for many years. I would also point out that many of the so-called experts are no different than many other so-called experts and are many times full of shit and simply have some initials behind their names so people believe their perspective and think they are smart ? I would ask who destroyed our economy in 2007-08 and the answer is the guys with all the initials behind their names, the PHDs and MBAs . So who is really the smart guys ? This is why I always mention that we all live under many illusions here in USSA today, because we do !
Bottom line is that the NT was written and many books left out because the books said something different than what TPTB wanted to be told . They were in fact setting up a major control mechanism called the Roman Catholic church , and that meant the Gnostics and Essenes and many other ancient writings like the book of Enoch, Thomas and Mary could not be allowed. Most people do not even realize that there were no Bibles before that time , only holy writings and very few people had any access to any of it, so it was very easy to create whatever they wanted. Even after printing was invented , Bibles were not readily available for hundreds of years because they were considered very expensive and not for the masses per se, but the nobles and TPTB. So over many centuries much truth was easily hidden and lost to this day ! But it is all out there if any care to look.
What does this have to do with SHTF?
I remember reading awhile back some scrolls found that claim Judas did what jesus asked,in that he wanted to be sold out to set a example,and that Judas really fell on the sword to do as his friend asked.
Would certainly if accepted change things a bit in the religious world,and would really screw with the band judas priest!
The more we learn,a lot of history changes throughout the centuries.
Hmmmm, well I’ll be damned lol…
BTW/ The only documents I care about is the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights and my titles to my property. That’s the Law of the Land. Learn it, and Live it.
btw, how do you think the bible would be written today with all the current knowledge of science, history, etc?
The Monk writers would probably crawl back in their dismal holes cause there would be holes everywhere in their stories and rarely a copy would be sold. Maybe that’s why they call it a Holy book.
That bunk was peddled as the “Gospel of Judas.”
Which was total bullshit because Judas killed himself immediately after betraying Jesus. When would Judas have written this? He didn’t write it, it was another fake.
But Christian haters keep peddling this crap to serve their own purposes. And surprisingly, they peddled fake crap in the days of Jesus too.
Considering none of the apostles actually wrote anything that was attributed to them what does judas killing himself have to do with it being true or false? I can see a person betraying a dear friend (in fear of their own life being taken) and then afterwards feeling so much guilt that they would kill themselves.
RJ , good point but many still think the apostles wrote the gospels attributed to them by name, even though they were written after they all died ? There are many such contradictions and false premises that people still believe in because they were told it is heresy to question any of it ! And of course during the inquisition they would torture and kill you for this to the tune of millions of people perished and died agonizing deaths? Something wrong with that picture of a religion ? How was that any different than ISIS/ISIL today ?
I am NOT anti Jesus at all, but I am anti established religions and churches because I know for a fact they are false and all were polluted and perverted by men not God about 2000 years ago! It is all out there for anybody to read for themselves. But like every other matter most will not take the time to know the truth of many matters because they are simply too lazy and consumed in junk thinking. Nothing new at all.
It’s like someone buying a coin dated 53 B.C.
Oh come on… I have an old coin that says on it,
“In Zeus We Trust”
lol
Religion is Fraud.
Amazing how people are consumed emotionally claiming they have a personal relationship with an imaginary friend. Go hug a tree or something that is real.
You seem to be ’emotionally consumed’ by this subject. Though so negatively an old saying comes to mind: There are none so blind as those who will not see.
Actually John,who said Judas wrote it?This could be a interesting conversation for awhile,and no,I did no say I was a christian hater?Amazing how many will just attack instead of discuss.
I am well founded in my faith so I can read fake codices and carry on conversations without concern of damaging my faith.
A Gospel is written by an author detailing their involvement with Jesus, basically like a biography about their walk with Jesus. The paper we are talking about was titled “The Gospel of Judas” indicating Judas had actually written it.
Just another fake, just like the Hitler Diaries.
Imagine how much more productive and peaceful the world would be without the clutter of religion getting in the way. Religion is one of the oldest forms of Psychological operations to pursway weak minds into believing anything they are told. It is also documented that religion causes brain damage. Google that.
Rejecting religion is in itself a religion.
You have “faith” that there is no God.
There is a big difference in what we call the established religions which are actually just businesses and all were created by men not God. Religion per se is not necessarily a good thing and the established religions are simply control mechanisms and have little of anything to do with God or Jesus who did actually walk on the planet. We have simply been told false stories and a lot has been deliberately withheld for a reason.
Yes Warchild I read something similar. It seems Jesus and Judas were making a political stand if you will and thought they would just get a slap on the wrist for it. Instead one turned on the other and the rest is history (well in a adulterated version of the truth we now call the bible).
Yes it is history , but also additional pieces of truth. I find it all fascinating and I likely will never be a church goer ?
I’m wearing toe separators.
Why?
I love everyone here.
pathetic load of rubbish
Jesus please materialize in front of us and show us so miracles
PLEASE……………
The greatest miracle He performed? Resurrection!
If you don’t believe that, there’s no point in showing up and doing some random little thing you’d like to see.
Resurrection! What more do you want?????
I agree, Grandee. It’s called faith. You either have it, or you don’t.
I have a bridge to sell to you.
You might consider selling that bridge to those who are so cynically self-sophisticated they will never be taken in by anything, like the love and faith I expressed in my wedding vows, and still hold as high as I did 30 years go.
I would not buy your bridge, as I would do my due diligence first. Similarly, one should do one’s due diligence before accepting Christ. And, if I may ask, exactly how much due diligence have you, or the other atheists here, actually done?
After researching the matter, it would take more of the “blind, buy this bridge” type of faith you allude to above to remain an atheist rather than a believer.
You may well have done your due diligence, but 99% of atheists/agnostics I meet have *never* done even rudimentary research into what, it seems to me, must be the greatest possible reality that could ever exist. Question is… why not?
Yep here is the Funny thing about Marriage in a Church. You pledge your faith, then Give your Wife a Diamond ring that is 5 million years old. lol Totally wiping out any form of credibility in religion. As the Religious claim the earth is only 5000 years old.
Yep the Joke is on you.
Well put, Grand. As noted above, the person who is perhaps THE most responsible for what constitutes the rules of legal evidence in the US is Simon Greenleaf of Harvard Univ., who was Jewish (this was in the later 1800s).
Turns out Greenleaf was challenged by a student to investigate the evidence for the resurrection. He had the intellectual honesty to do just that. This man – again, who is responsible for what constitutes if YOU OR I go to jail relative to evidence – became a Christian, based on the research he did (Yale law school grad Lee Strobel is a modern example of this. I assume you have done the due diligence of investigating his work?), later penning The Testimony of the Evangelists. He is not the first. E.g., Lew Wallace, who penned Ben Hur, also set out to debunk Christianity.
Point is, as Dostoyevski wrote in Brothers Karamozov, even if Christ showed up to these folks, they would still claim is was the funny mushrooms on their pizza, or in the case of Fyodor, try to kill Him yet again.
I will await ES Eyes’ response, but have you done ANY due diligence on the matter? Would you not agree that, if this story is true, it is the greatest thing to ever happen in history? And if that is the case, does it not follow that it would be worthwhile to investigate – or try to falsify (which is what good scientist would do) the hypothesis? Dr. Gary Habermas ‘The Case for the Resurrection’ would be one place to start.
I have read a vast number of atheists’ books. Why would you not show the same intellectual honesty from the other side?
Whenever I see something like this, I remember that people then were just like people today. There can be dozens of scrolls or tablets prepared by any number of people for any number of reasons, and with any information the writer wanted to put in there. This could be a genuine artifact from 2,000 years ago, but the writing could be put there by someone who was merely musing about the new religion he had been told about, or could have been added a few hundred years later, or could be a complete fraud from even later. All I know is it is not prudent to think that a single artifact is the only such thing out there, like thinking finding a fossil dinosaur is a complete record of the Jurassic Era.
Exactly so. Confirming the age of an artifact never confers its veracity . If someone were to find a copy of the National Enquirer 2000 years from now that would make what’s in it any truer than it is today.
WOULD NOT make it any truer than it is today……I type too fast …
It’s worth remembering that literacy and ability to write were not nearly as widespread as today.
What’s your point? Literate people wrote the National Enquirer . Literate just means the ability to read and write . It does not give the individual discernment .
The Democrat Jews were there in Jesus’ time to prevent “fake” news too.
Ridiculous. We have ALWAYS had fake news. Who do you think the Gnostics were?
Oh and Jesus AND his disciples were ALL Jews.
Good grief!
At the time that Jesus was on earth, he did have women assist in his ministry which is in compliance with scriptures as man being created first and woman second. The account given in Genesis as God taking a rib from Adam and the creation of Woman later named Eve by Adam.
The reason was God, not man saw that man needed a helpmate. I will end there. Jesus never referred to a woman as a deity. Always referenced My Father or My Fathers House or a masculine reference.
The Bible says God is a spirit.
While on earth, Jesus complied with the Law of Moses in regard to Temple Worship. After his death and resurrection and ascension to Heaven, Temple worship of bringing animal sacrifice was no longer needed.
At one time on Planet Earth, In Jerusalem, Israel, The very presence of God resided in The Hebrew Temple,(Holy of Holies) in normally called Solomans temple. In The First Temple The Ark was present in The Holy of Holies. Also resided in the tabernacle in the wilderness built by Moses per God’s direction prior to the built of the temple by Solomon.
Makes interesting reading.
Point. You now know why Israel is always in the news.
The Temple Mount in Jerusalem is the most prized piece of property on the planet. And millions of people are going to die over it and not understand why.
It seems someone is always trying to under mind scriptures and always trying somehow to put a woman in the three in one God. God The Father, God The Son and God The Holy Spirit.
Some say God demeanor woman. He used a woman to bring his son into the world. And it is proven throughout scriptures, women were far more faithful and bold than the men at times.
Boy, are some people’s jaw going to drop.
P.S. The Holy Grail as some call it is a bloodline, not a cup.
The holy grail is a bloodline?Hmmmm….,thought a movie with the Monty Python folks!
The holy grail is NOT a bloodline. That Merovingian lie was created and promulgated by an online internet guy decades ago (w h o admitted to it) and turned into things like the da Vinci code .
They even sue each other back and forth for years and course of law over this brilliant idea . Jesus never married and had no children . The holy Grail being a bloodline is preposterous not to mention blasphemous .
Ga 1:6 ¶ I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Ga 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Ga 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Ga 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
“Which is not another…”–you will find it to be no gospel at all–not really another gospel, but the perverting of the gospel of Christ, and the overturning of the foundations of that.
Well…just my thoughts on the subject.
~peace
… and good thoughts they are, mon ami!
I wonder why we don’t have a discription of Jesus. His height weight facial structure? Shoe size? Anything?
The Gospel of (Dr.) Luke, chapter 2 reveals Jesus internal beauty and growth into manhood.
El Shaddai, one term for God in the OT, refers to a woman’s breast for nursing. God created male *and* female in His image.
However, men are more initiators, women responders, by nature, and as a generalization (please note that last part!). Given that, we are all “female” before God, in that He is the initiator.
Otherwise, didn’t see too much controversial here. Obviously, much more analysis needs to be done to try to pin down the date.
El Shaddai, one term for God in the OT, refers to a woman’s breast for nursing?
That’s a new one for me!
maybe I’ll stick with:
El Shaddai (Hebrew: אל שדי, IPA: [el ʃaˈdːaj]) is one of the names of the primary Judaic god. El Shaddai is conventionally translated as God Almighty.
Grand – that is one possible derivation. I should have been more clear. In Heb., shadayim which means “pair of breasts” (cue the jr. high humour here!). But this is NOT conclusive, and there are several other possible derivations. IF this is the case, it simply would refer to God being nurturing. So just take that with a loose hand. Your description is most accurate.
Appreciate your calling me to account. Iron sharpens iron, eh!
This, in the NYT, was more interesting, and illustrates how the Bible (if we didn’t learn this already from the Dead Sea Scrolls, where, e.g., in Isaiah, what we have today is virtually identical to what was written around 700 BC! Remember, no vowels in Hebrew) was transmitted to us almost ipsissima verba (interestingly, the few variants prove that there could not have been any collusion).
See also Cold Case Christianity by J. Warner Wallace (a former CA. atheist cold case detective, who started investigating out of curiosity; Youtube from him at https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLe2_-rdg84anAv47N1JAHIMaF58QxVRQr ). Here is part of the NYT article how scientists used medical imaging technology to peer into a scroll of Leviticus that was so fragile it could not be opened. Per NYT:
“It turns out to hold a fragment identical to the Masoretic text of the Hebrew Bible and, at nearly 2,000 years old, is the earliest instance of the text. The writing retrieved by the computer from the digital image of the unopened scroll is amazingly clear and legible, in contrast to the scroll’s blackened and beaten-up exterior. “Never in our wildest dreams did we think anything would come of it,” said Pnina Shor, the head of the Dead Sea Scrolls Project at the Israel Antiquities Authority…The scroll’s content, the first two chapters of the Book of Leviticus, has consonants — early Hebrew texts didn’t specify vowels — ******that are identical to those of the Masoretic text, the authoritative version of the Hebrew Bible and the one often used as the basis for translations of the Old Testament in Protestant Bibles.****
So, something that was written ~ 1,400 BC has been transmitted to us – as we now know from the article above – that ******the modern text “that are identical to those of the Masoretic text, the authoritative version of the Hebrew Bible and the one often used as the basis for translations of the Old Testament in Protestant Bibles.”
Staggering. Article at http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/22/science/ancient-sea-scrolls-bible.html?smid=fb-share&_r=3&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fm.facebook.com%2F
God is not some kind of transgender dual citizen. God is spirit. Spirit is not limited. Bodies are gendered for procreation. Outside the body, we too, like God, have no gender.
Gee, do I have to tell you everything.
__
Well that sucks…. So when I get to Heaven I won’t have a dick?
What would you do with a dick in heaven anyway? There is no marriage, thus no screwing in heaven. You would be too busy worshipping god 24/7 for all eternity and won’t have sexual urges. Although many christians try to ascribe earthly values to what there version of heaven will be like – streets of gold, mansions, eating whatever you want, etc, etc. Though there is sin in heaven – just ask the devil and his friends – so who knows what it really is.
John, I was just reading about sexuality in Heaven the other day (What? No sex?!) Much we don’t know, of course, but it may be, as CS Lewis pointed out, that this will be far transcended in Heaven; just as a pre-pubescent boy, when told about adult sexuality might say “What? No chocolate?!?” so too, we will find things beyond our imagination in Heaven.
I know your comment was facetious – but it does have an interesting – and actually important side to it (what place will our humanity have in Heaven? Will I still be myself, or some kind of “ghost?” What is the meaning of our experiences here on earth, when we get to Heaven, etc. etc. . If you are interested in learning more (I”m not doing the topic justice here) see “Beyond the Shadowlands” by Wayne Martindale for more info. I know Dr. Martindale personally, though not well
you won’t need one
Mt 22:28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
Mt 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
Mt 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
also:
1John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as he is.
If god is a spirit why is the bible so male centered? Most christians believe that god is male.
God is revealed primarily as Father because the male way of being is the initiator of love, the Lover. The female way is being loved, the beloved. However, since God is spirit, He is neither male nor female. As John Paul wrote, Genesis insists that man was created in the image and likeness of God, male and female He created them… humans are in the image and likeness of God because they are male and female, and only male AND female together shows the complete image of God. There is a legitimate sense in which one might talk about God’s femininity in the Trinity and the female way of being also includes the active love of maternity, and so one can also speak of the maternity of God. Mystics like Julian of Norwhich and Hildegard Von Bingham wrote extensively about this aspect of God!
Perfect, Padre.
Speaking of God being the initiator, I JUST listened to “Baby It’s Cold Outside,” a common Christmas song. Right there you see the male being the initiator, the woman more responsive. Same with marriage proposals. Exactly HOW many woman have gotten down on one knee in front of a man to propose, here or any other culture? No doubt it has happened… 0.001% of the time. Even there, the exception proves the rule.
Padre, that would be wrong since Jesus Christ is also the Father and fully male. According to the Bible, there is only one Lord and his Holy name is Jesus Christ.
You are right, Believer. But remember, Christ was fully man AND fully God. And God made man AND women in His own image. Sounds like you are tending towards Sabellianism (modalism( or maybe Monarchianism. The Trinity means God there is **one** God, yet three distinct persons, each person is the same in substance and equal in glory and power. The Westminster Confession of Faith states:
“In the unity of the Godhead there be three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity; God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. The Father is of none, neither begotten nor preceding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Ghost eternally preceding from the Father and the Son.”
Hank Hanegraaff at http://www.equip.org is an excellent resource for further research.
RJ
A diversion from the doom and gloom.
RJ, see Martindale’s book I referred to above, if you are really and seriously interested. As noted, we are as humans “female” in relation to God’s initiating work. The overwhelming tendency in human relations across cultures is for men to be the initiators, so this metaphor (it IS a metaphor!) captures that. As an example, how many of you proposed to your wife, vs. had the wife propose to you. I rest my case.
Headship order:
1Corinthians 11:3 But I (Apostle Paul) would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
A precept through out the Bible:
1Corinthians 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
Just sitting here trying to discover the relevance to prepping that this article presents.
What are you ultimately prepping for?
20-30 years of mortal existence?
Eternity?
Which lottery has your complete attention and did you pick up your ticket? He left one for you, you know. All you have to do is believe it is there and pick it up.
WW – yep!
I prep short term AND “long term,” understanding that we are going to be dead a whole LOT longer than we are going to be alive, so the latter takes precedence, while the former should not be ignored
It is a little hidden, but there.
Jesus is your best prep, for eternity is a very long time!
What you believe about Jesus is most important to where you will spend that eternity.
“A LEAD TABLET”
First off – Jesus should of let this/those people know that “lead” is bad for your health and to play with — which is why things of this nature back in the day were written on Scrolls and Stone.
Is this fake … probability is close to 98.9% — YES
If lead is bad for a humans health why did god create it? Same with parasites, etc.
It is often not the message, or the lead ‘paper’ that give a ‘fake’ away – but rather the oxidizing and weathering (or lack thereof) of the scratch marks. That needs a high Rez microscope to examine. It also reveals info on the tool used for making the markings, including a real chance of some residue or small shavings. A beveled cut would indicate it was made by high quality steel. Corners, curves, and places where each symbol are started or stopped also give clues to the writing tool.
I vote fake, but it should be examined forensically. The fact that someone wants to ‘sell it’ also implies it is fake and they do not want it examined in detail.
Tack så mycket, Norse (that’s ‘thanks so much in Swedish… one language I speak a little!). This was very helpful to remember!
This is why I come on this site, to get intelligent observations like this!
Has anybody found a translation Jordan Lead Codices?
I can’t find anywhere what was written in these Codices. All the web sites are about debunking the Codices or claiming they are real, but none actually say what is in side the Codices.
Another reason why these are bullshit.
there is this small effort, and it is small:
A Preliminary Translation of the Jordan Codices is Offered:
ht tps://danielomcclellan.wordpress.com/2011/08/25/a-preliminary-translation-of-the-jordan-codices-is-offered/
and a more lengthy article but with little actual translation.
The Jordan Codices
© Margaret Barker 2013
Dozens of small lead books have been found. That much is certain. The rest of this story is shrouded in a web of secrecy, half truth and big money.
About five years ago I was shown photos of small lead books that had been found in…
ht tp://www.margaretbarker.com/Papers/TheJordanCodices.pdf
I looked at that and it is not a translation of anything.
This appears to be a children’s book.
Which would make sense. Kids would just tear up the papyrus, the letters don’t make words, and there are lots of pictures.
Philip Davies’ recent PEQ editorial, available for free here, mentions this repetition and calls the lettering “mostly purely decorative.” This rather conflicts with Elkington’s claim to have the world’s top paleo-Hebrew mind reaching a breakthrough in translation (unless, of course, Elkington doesn’t think Davies is one of the five who can read it!) From your link.
Why these people always claim to find new documents related to Jesus, i don’t know. Maybe for worldly fame and money….
I would love to read it. I’ve read most every religious text I could find from the Egyptian book of the dead to the false prophet Mohamads abomination.
Until it is translated and published, I don’t accept the statements of those that reject it.
One criticism of the document was that it contained styles that are claimed to have not existed for many years. They don’t entertain that such a document might have had annotations added years later.
One of the problems with early written Hebrew is they did not include vowels. They were understood from context. Thus “th dg chsd th ct” is understood as “the dog chased the cat”. Later versions of Hebrew began adding vowels. Without a fair reading and study of the document, we cannot judge.
By the way, people should avoid the Egyptian book of the dead. It’s really a hypnosis chant that has really screwed with people’s minds. It can induce visions and be mind altering in a dark way.
I have a lead plate in my head, covering my tinfoil hat. Does that count?
yepper! works fer me!
I always chuckle at the scholars that try to ‘date’ writing styles based on phrasing or symbols that they declare were used only in certain centuries. But what they look for comparison are scrolls or books that are done in high literary style by well trained scribes. While they happily recognize that styles changed over time, there seems to be no recognition that the new style was invented somewhere and sometime earlier. Or that the old style might have continued under a grizzled old scribe. Or that less trained scribes or writers may have taken a stab at writing something down.
Thy dig cheesed tho cut?
I call BS.
A female goddess or god, engineers all life in earth with permission from The Prime Creator.. listen to the 3 interviews with Kerry Cassidy and George Green..they are our pro- genitors..
HCKS
No, they are not. If you are correct, then Jesus is a liar. As far as I am concerned, the resurrection validates what he said. Your validation is what? You are apparently referring to some kind of gnostic “demiurge” it seems, tho I may be not understanding fully what you wrote. But IF that is the tree you are barking up, gnosticism is a fraud.
You don’t believe in the resurrection? Exactly how much work have you done to research this? Seriously. Have you read Lee Strobel (J.D. from Yale)? Anyone else? There is a point of falsification (you do know what that is, correct?) that Christianity has, as it has entered time and space. Monism, which you are seemingly alluding to, has no point of falsification as it has not entered time and space.
Clearly this tablet is Jesus’ carpenters union card. How else could he get work back then?
It’s just babylonian mystery religion crap. And it doesn’t matter when the lies were written; being old lies doesn’t help them. Flush these lies down the toilet of history. Jesus and the Bible stand against the lies of gnosticism and babylonian lies.
Do you suppose they had mainstream fake news back then?
Do you suppose they had mainstream fake news back then?
Well… Dan Rather did “find that memo” a few years ago. Maybe he found something like this, too
So, metalurgical testing dates the lead as 2,000 years old but textually it seems to be a recent forgery. Is it possible it’s a recent forgery on old blank lead tablets?
odd, lead doesn’t turn rusty red like that, must be impure or not be lead at all…my bet is iron..maybe with some lead on it?
“Authors David and Jennifer Elkington have been campaigning since 2009 for the codices to be recognised and protected but say evangelical Christians are trying to brand them fakes.”
I’m not an overt skeptic..but..
something is not right about the way this is reported..
If they are true discoveries, and not forgeries, then a campaign would not be needed…
if the elkingtons are reeeeaally “trying to prevent them from being sold on the black market” then why don’t they make a bid to buy them?
“..a more detailed analysis of the writings and symbols may connect it with the existing understanding of Christian scripture.”
“..The full impact of the document has yet to play out,..”
These may be a hint to their true intent, to continue to refute Jesus as “..the way, the truth and the life.”
They have these things on eBay all the time.
Further the NWO Muslim brotherhood just convicted another one that says Jesus wasn’t
Crucified- It’s labeled now the Barnabas Hoax.
Jordan is controlled by the brotherhood as well as Turkey – all this tripe
During 2008-2016 NWO reign.
Yes they are both silly eBay specials